[T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition

Tim Jones tjmac at tolisgroup.com
Fri Jul 31 08:50:01 PDT 2020


Hi all,

If I may interject as an ISV and direct interface to said "hearts", when 
software deals with removal, it's not considering that you removed a - 
for example - physical eSATA disk chassis, but that the filesystem 
provided by that chassis was removed, or the tape cartridge was ejected 
from the tape drive.  Users, therefore, are less aware of the device 
versus media conundrum that this discussion considers.  Since the RMB 
entity is something that developers need, but users never see directly, 
I would "vote" for not clumping the ability to identify a device as 
removable with identifying media removability.  Physical devices should 
be identified by their "hot plug" ability, which is very different.

Tim Jones
TOLIS Group, Inc.

On 7/30/20 1:11 PM, John Geldman wrote:
>
> I will note that when it comes to user interfaces, what people assume 
> tends to be a higher value suit of cards over our obtuse and 
> obfuscated specifications (i.e., hearts beat clubs).
>
> Confirming what multiple OS’s historically did with the bit and what 
> we initially meant by the bit should inform our next steps for 
> clarifying interoperability intent.
>
> John
>
> *From:* t10-bounces at t10.org <t10-bounces at t10.org> *On Behalf Of *Ralph 
> Weber
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2020 8:55 AM
> *To:* t10 at t10.org
> *Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> IMHO The discussion below appears to be covering the kind of material 
> that would cause a T10 Plenary to be recessed if it were mentioned in 
> that forum.
>
> *From:* Curtis Stevens <curtis.stevens at seagate.com 
> <mailto:curtis.stevens at seagate.com>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2020 10:15 AM
> *To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>; 
> t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> *CAUTION:**This email originated from outside of Western Digital. Do 
> not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender 
> and know that the content is safe.*
>
> The reason I ask this question is that in windows, when you right 
> click the drive letter in windows explorer, some devices show eject in 
> that menu, others do not.  It is fewer keystrokes and targets the 
> correct device more effectivly than going into the task bar, left 
> clicking the uparrow, left clicking mouseman and then selecting the 
> device.
>
> I actually think the standard is fine, if a little vague, but it 
> really the OS behavior and user convenience that is driving the issue.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Curtis E. Stevens
>
> Technologist
>
> Seagate Technology
>
> E-Mail: Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com <mailto:Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com>
>
> Phone: 949-307-5050
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org> 
> <t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> on behalf of Curtis 
> Stevens <curtis.stevens at seagate.com <mailto:curtis.stevens at seagate.com>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2020 7:56 AM
> *To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>; 
> t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org> <t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> Curiosity question...  Has anyone found why this practice is happening 
> and/or being requested??
>
> Just wondering if Windows or iOS provide a different experience when 
> the bit is set?
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Curtis E. Stevens
>
> Technologist
>
> Seagate Technology
>
> E-Mail: Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com <mailto:Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com>
>
> Phone: 949-307-5050
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org> 
> <t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> on behalf of Ralph 
> Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2020 4:34 AM
> *To:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org> <t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> Kevin,
>
> Having slept on the problem, it’s become apparent that symmetry 
> requires the addition of “is not able to be” to the first sentence, a la…
>
> A removable medium (rmb) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removableable to be removed only if that removal is accompanied by 
> the breaking of the I_T nexus connection between the application 
> client to the device server. A rmb bit set to one indicates that the 
> medium is removableable to be removed without affecting the I_T nexus 
> between the application client and the device server.
>
> All the best, .Ralph
>
> *From:* John Geldman <John.Geldman at kioxia.com 
> <mailto:John.Geldman at kioxia.com>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 30, 2020 12:37 AM
> *To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>; 
> t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> *CAUTION:**This email originated from outside of Western Digital. Do 
> not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender 
> and know that the content is safe.*
>
> Ralph,
>
> I seem to be missing something.
>
> From my world view RMB was/is about removable media, not removable 
> devices. We still want it to be. If we declare that rmb set to zero 
> means not able to remove the media, then to remove the media, the 
> device server has to be removed, i.e., disconnected.
>
> The statement that removal of a device breaks the connection to the 
> host needs to be said?
>
> Isn’t the problem folks thinking RMB was/is about removable devices?
>
> John
>
> *From:* t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org> 
> <t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> *On Behalf Of 
> *Ralph Weber
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 6:45 PM
> *To:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> IMHO The absence of any statement about the I_T nexus in the RMB=0 
> case severely limits the value of the change.
>
> *From:* John Geldman <John.Geldman at kioxia.com 
> <mailto:John.Geldman at kioxia.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 8:27 PM
> *To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>; 
> t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> *CAUTION:**This email originated from outside of Western Digital. Do 
> not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender 
> and know that the content is safe.*
>
> The observations are all correct, but they do obfuscate. Does this work?
>
> A removable medium (rmb) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removable able to be removed from the device server. A rmb bit set 
> to one indicates that the medium is removableable to be removed from 
> the device server. If the rmb bit is set to one and the medium is 
> removed, then the I_T nexus between the application client and the 
> device server, if any, is not affected.
>
> John
>
> *From:* t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org> 
> <t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> *On Behalf Of 
> *Ralph Weber
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 5:52 PM
> *To:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> I agree that the two sentence are not symmetrical, however… I cannot 
> find a way to make them symmetrical that does not involve an excess of 
> Rube Goldberg English that obfuscates more than it clarifies.
>
> Please feel free to augment the suggestion made below with detailed 
> text changes.
>
> All the best, .Ralph
>
> *From:* Kevin D Butt <kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 3:42 PM
> *To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>
> *Cc:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> *CAUTION:**This email originated from outside of Western Digital. Do 
> not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender 
> and know that the content is safe.*
>
> That is starting to look good to me, but I would suggest making it 
> symmetrical.
>
> A removable medium (rmb) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removable able to be removed without removing the I_T nexus that 
> connects the application client to the device server. A rmb bit set to 
> one indicates that the medium is removableable to be removed without 
> affecting the I_T nexus between the application client and the device 
> server.
>
>
>
> Kevin D. Butt
> SCSI Architect, Tape Firmware, Data Retention Infrastructure
> T10 Standards
> MS 6TYA, 9000 S. Rita Rd., Tucson, AZ 85744
> Tel: 520-799-5280
> Fax: 520-799-2723 (T/L:321)
> Email address: kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>
>
> =========== Interesting Links ===========
> [ IBM Tape Storage ] 
> https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/storage/tape 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ibm.com_it-2Dinfrastructure_storage_tape&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=XDzUFj_mPxsdK4ySGtNLvEpdt-P-p9TlwCQy-jumBQw&e=>
> [ SSIC - HBA/OS/Switch/Product interoperation ] 
> https://www-304.ibm.com/systems/support/storage/ssic/interoperability.wss 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www-2D304.ibm.com_systems_support_storage_ssic_interoperability.wss&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=kJlxCt0krgZA7CDP4mNMCcrIJoCQqfTYD60ZjsISFT4&e=>
> [ LTO & 3592 ISV Support Matrix ] 
> www.ibm.com/systems/resources/lto_isv_matrix.pdf 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ibm.com_systems_resources_lto-5Fisv-5Fmatrix.pdf&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=jieYGmHJ5cthnJ-3CgdF4uzlDI4n13clu8mLEny8SHI&e=>
> [ LTO SCSI Reference ] 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=ssg1S7003556 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2D01.ibm.com_support_docview.wss-3Fuid-3Dssg1S7003556&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=wWvAVhY48xet6A9LFFfDzWiY7OIWLyV7bVFvgN1pyC4&e=>
> [ 3592 SCSI Reference ] 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=ssg1S7003248 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2D01.ibm.com_support_docview.wss-3Fuid-3Dssg1S7003248&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=N8gJbSMahJD3-i-9EmRj38pQfvldPmMOR_13kHGlA6U&e=>
> ===================================
>
>
>
> From: Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>
> To: "t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>" <t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>
> Date: 07/29/2020 13:20
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) 
> bit definition
> Sent by: t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Or… how about something along the lines of:
>
> A removable medium (rmb) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removable without removing the I_T nexus that connects the 
> application client to the device server. A rmb bit set to one 
> indicates that the medium is removableable to be removed without 
> affecting the I_T nexus between the application client and the device 
> server.
>
> *From:*Curtis Stevens <curtis.stevens at seagate.com 
> <mailto:curtis.stevens at seagate.com>> *
> Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 3:12 PM*
> To:* Ballard, Curtis C (HPE Storage) <curtis.ballard at hpe.com 
> <mailto:curtis.ballard at hpe.com>>; Kevin D Butt <kdbutt at us.ibm.com 
> <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>; Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com 
> <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>*
> Cc:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>*
> Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> *CAUTION:**This email originated from outside of Western Digital. Do 
> not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender 
> and know that the content is safe.*
>
> I think part of the blatant wording that Ralph is proposing is that 
> those making the requirements on the device side do not fully 
> understand SCSI.  This has been the case from day 1 and has not 
> changed.  It is fairly easy to understand commands and what they do. 
>  Understanding the architecture is a different story.
>
> I think your suggested change could be integrated with Ralphs change...
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Curtis E. Stevens
>
> Technologist
>
> Seagate Technology
>
> E-Mail: Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com <mailto:Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com>
>
> Phone: 949-307-5050
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Ballard, Curtis C (HPE Storage) <curtis.ballard at hpe.com 
> <mailto:curtis.ballard at hpe.com>>*
> Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 12:49 PM*
> To:* Curtis Stevens <curtis.stevens at seagate.com 
> <mailto:curtis.stevens at seagate.com>>; Kevin D Butt <kdbutt at us.ibm.com 
> <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>; Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com 
> <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>*
> Cc:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org><t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>*
> Subject:* RE: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> Why don’t we specify it in architectural terms.  Something along the 
> lines of:
>
> A removable medium (rmb) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removable from the device server.
>
> A rmb bit set to one indicates that the medium is removableable to be 
> removed without removing the device server.
>
> Curtis Ballard
>
> Hewlett Packard Enterprise
>
> HPE Storage R&D
>
> Fort Collins, CO
>
> (970) 898-3013
>
> *From:*t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>[mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *Curtis Stevens*
> Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 1:04 PM*
> To:* Kevin D Butt <kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>; 
> Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>*
> Cc:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>*
> Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> I would turn the proposal around and say the RMB bit shall only be set 
> to one if the device is able to report ... after is media is ejected.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Curtis E. Stevens
>
> Technologist
>
> Seagate Technology
>
> E-Mail: Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com <mailto:Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com>
>
> Phone: 949-307-5050
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org><t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> on behalf of Kevin D Butt 
> <kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>*
> Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2020 8:48 AM*
> To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>*
> Cc:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org><t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>*
> Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> Ralph,
>
> I applaud your goal, however, I am concerned about this definition. 
> Take, for example, a tape library. It has removable media, yet it 
> would not report one of these two additional sense codes. Even if all 
> user cartridges were removed, the library would still be ready. It 
> could do management type things including using diagnostic cartridges 
> (not seen as medium to the application client) to test drives.
>
> The RMBshould be set to zero, if the device server is not able to 
> terminate a TEST UNIT READY command (6.48) with CHECK CONDITION 
> status, with the sense key set to NOT READY and the additional sense code:
> a)set to NOT READY, MEDIUM NOT PRESENT; or
> b)having the ADDITIONALSENSECODEfield (see 4.4.2 and 4.4.3) set to 3Ah 
> (e.g., MEDIUM NOT PRESENT - TRAY OPEN).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin D. Butt
> SCSI Architect, Tape Firmware, Data Retention Infrastructure
> T10 Standards
> MS 6TYA, 9000 S. Rita Rd., Tucson, AZ 85744
> Tel: 520-799-5280
> Fax: 520-799-2723 (T/L:321)
> Email address: kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>
>
> =========== Interesting Links ===========
> [ IBM Tape Storage ] 
> https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/storage/tape 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ibm.com_it-2Dinfrastructure_storage_tape&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=XDzUFj_mPxsdK4ySGtNLvEpdt-P-p9TlwCQy-jumBQw&e=>
> [ SSIC - HBA/OS/Switch/Product interoperation ] 
> https://www-304.ibm.com/systems/support/storage/ssic/interoperability.wss 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www-2D304.ibm.com_systems_support_storage_ssic_interoperability.wss&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=kJlxCt0krgZA7CDP4mNMCcrIJoCQqfTYD60ZjsISFT4&e=>
> [ LTO & 3592 ISV Support Matrix ] 
> www.ibm.com/systems/resources/lto_isv_matrix.pdf 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ibm.com_systems_resources_lto-5Fisv-5Fmatrix.pdf&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=jieYGmHJ5cthnJ-3CgdF4uzlDI4n13clu8mLEny8SHI&e=>
> [ LTO SCSI Reference ] 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=ssg1S7003556 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2D01.ibm.com_support_docview.wss-3Fuid-3Dssg1S7003556&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=wWvAVhY48xet6A9LFFfDzWiY7OIWLyV7bVFvgN1pyC4&e=>
> [ 3592 SCSI Reference ] 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=ssg1S7003248 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2D01.ibm.com_support_docview.wss-3Fuid-3Dssg1S7003248&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=N8gJbSMahJD3-i-9EmRj38pQfvldPmMOR_13kHGlA6U&e=>
> ===================================
>
>
>
> From: Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>
> To: "t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>" <t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>
> Date: 07/29/2020 06:49
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) 
> bit definition
> Sent by: t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Proposal 20-082r0 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.t10.org_cgi-2Dbin_ac.pl-3Ft-3Dd-26f-3D20-2D082r0.pdf&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=8S4Oa0Od4P2cdkwjCZAoSJu_w4TdaRkdLp8QHfNkBFQ&e=>/SPC-6: 
> Removable Medium Bit Expectations/ has been posted to bring this 
> discussion thread to the attention of CAP.
>
> Resisting the ongoing calls to put as many words as possible into 
> every standard, the proposal includes only one of the methods for 
> defining a “real” removable medium device discussed in this thread. 
> For the purposes discussed here, only one method is necessary to 
> sufficiently define the standard.
>
> All the best, .Ralph
>
> *From:*t10-bounces at t10.org <t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> *On Behalf Of *Michael Webster*
> Sent:* Tuesday, July 21, 2020 7:57 PM*
> To:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>*
> Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> I would like to add one other tidbit:  A device reporting RMB=1 in 
> addition to being capable of a state that reports MEDIUM NOT PRESENT, 
> such a device should also properly support and execute an ejection 
> operation of that media when sent a START/STOP UNIT command with 
> Power_Condition=0, LoEj=1, & Start=0.
>
> Mike Webster
> Western Digital
>
> *From: *<t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> on behalf 
> of Mike Webster <Mike.Webster at wdc.com <mailto:Mike.Webster at wdc.com>>*
> Date: *Friday, July 17, 2020 at 10:30 AM*
> To: *"t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>" <t10 at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>*
> Subject: *Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> I would expect a USB memory stick to report RMB=0 and ejection causes 
> the whole device to be removed from the operating system’s driver 
> stack.  Afterward, such an ejected device would require an 
> unplug/re-plug for the device to respond to anything on USB.
>
> Unless that USB memory stick included a slot for media (e.g. an SD 
> slot) then I would expect the USB memory stick to report RMB=1 and 
> ejection would only cause the device to remove the media, the device 
> would remain in the operating system’s driver stack, and the device 
> would begin reporting CHECK CONDITION, NOT READY, MEDIUM NOT PRESENT 
> for TEST UNIT READY.
>
> Mike Webster
> Western Digital
>
> *From: *<t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> on behalf 
> of Curtis Stevens <curtis.stevens at seagate.com 
> <mailto:curtis.stevens at seagate.com>>*
> Date: *Friday, July 17, 2020 at 10:05 AM*
> To: *Kevin D Butt <kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>, Paul 
> Suhler <Paul.Suhler at kioxia.com <mailto:Paul.Suhler at kioxia.com>>*
> Cc: *"t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>" <t10 at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>, "t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>" <t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>>*
> Subject: *Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> We had this descussion during the original specification development. 
>  For USB, the device controller is removed along with the media. 
>  There is nothing present to respond with an RMB bit.  If however, you 
> plug in a USB floppy, you can have an RMB bit that enables eject 
> function reporting.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Curtis E. Stevens
> Technologist
> Seagate Technology
>
> E-Mail: Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com <mailto:Curtis.Stevens at Seagate.com>
> Phone: 949-307-5050
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> *From:*t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org><t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> on behalf of Kevin D Butt 
> <kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>>*
> Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2020 9:40 AM*
> To:* Paul Suhler <Paul.Suhler at kioxia.com <mailto:Paul.Suhler at kioxia.com>>*
> Cc:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org><t10 at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>; t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org><t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>>*
> Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> I concur with Curtis and Paul.
>
> Kevin D. Butt
> SCSI Architect, Tape Firmware, Data Retention Infrastructure
> T10 Standards
> MS 6TYA, 9000 S. Rita Rd., Tucson, AZ 85744
> Tel: 520-799-5280
> Fax: 520-799-2723 (T/L:321)
> Email address: kdbutt at us.ibm.com <mailto:kdbutt at us.ibm.com>
>
> =========== Interesting Links ===========
> [ IBM Tape Storage ] 
> https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/storage/tape 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ibm.com_it-2Dinfrastructure_storage_tape&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=XDzUFj_mPxsdK4ySGtNLvEpdt-P-p9TlwCQy-jumBQw&e=>
> [ SSIC - HBA/OS/Switch/Product interoperation ] 
> https://www-304.ibm.com/systems/support/storage/ssic/interoperability.wss 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www-2D304.ibm.com_systems_support_storage_ssic_interoperability.wss&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=kJlxCt0krgZA7CDP4mNMCcrIJoCQqfTYD60ZjsISFT4&e=>
> [ LTO & 3592 ISV Support Matrix ] 
> www.ibm.com/systems/resources/lto_isv_matrix.pdf 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ibm.com_systems_resources_lto-5Fisv-5Fmatrix.pdf&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=jieYGmHJ5cthnJ-3CgdF4uzlDI4n13clu8mLEny8SHI&e=>
> [ LTO SCSI Reference ] 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=ssg1S7003556 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2D01.ibm.com_support_docview.wss-3Fuid-3Dssg1S7003556&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=wWvAVhY48xet6A9LFFfDzWiY7OIWLyV7bVFvgN1pyC4&e=>
> [ 3592 SCSI Reference ] 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=ssg1S7003248 
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www-2D01.ibm.com_support_docview.wss-3Fuid-3Dssg1S7003248&d=DwMFAg&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=nwHemJnAMSpX8_5V-KnVO4RC6Gz7LepZjtJQCJYPS9M&m=Sql9aAjZSPkTpoMWW8b5dSvkp5K71NZJGy638dn9BGY&s=N8gJbSMahJD3-i-9EmRj38pQfvldPmMOR_13kHGlA6U&e=>
> ===================================
>
>
>
> From: Paul Suhler <Paul.Suhler at kioxia.com <mailto:Paul.Suhler at kioxia.com>>
> To: "Ballard, Curtis C (HPE Storage)" <curtis.ballard at hpe.com 
> <mailto:curtis.ballard at hpe.com>>, Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com 
> <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>, "t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>" 
> <t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>>
> Date: 07/17/2020 09:19
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) 
> bit definition
> Sent by: t10-bounces at t10.org <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I agree with Curtis about the need to be able to report NOT READY, 
> MEDIUM NOT PRESENT. I’ve worked on both SSC and SBC devices like that.
>
> Paul
> Kioxia
> *
> From:*t10-bounces at t10.org <t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> *On Behalf Of *Ballard, Curtis C (HPE 
> Storage)*
> Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2020 9:54 AM*
> To:* Ralph Weber <Ralph.Weber at wdc.com <mailto:Ralph.Weber at wdc.com>>; 
> t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>*
> Subject:* Re: [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> Ralph,
>
> That bit is used with tape drives and was used with SCSI magneto 
> optical drives, DVD drives, etc.
>
> Even system I’ve used with that bit set to one, and I’ve worked with 
> several devices from different manufacturers that set that bit to one, 
> only use it in reference to the media with no device server disruption 
> other than the expected Unit Attention condition transitions as the 
> media is removed and re-loaded.
>
> SCSI devices should only set that bit to one if they are able to 
> report an 02h/3Ah/00h – NOT READY, MEDIUM NOT PRESENT
>
> Curtis Ballard
> Hewlett Packard Enterprise
> *
> From:*t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org><t10-bounces at t10.org 
> <mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>> *On Behalf Of *Ralph Weber*
> Sent:* Thursday, July 16, 2020 5:27 PM*
> To:* t10 at t10.org <mailto:t10 at t10.org>*
> Subject:* [T10] Revisiting the RMB (Removable Medium) bit definition
>
> Regarding the Standard INQUIRY data RMB bit, SPC-6 r02 says…
> “A removable medium (RMB) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removable. A RMB bit set to one indicates that the medium is 
> removable.”
>
> An interesting debate has developed regarding whether a USB “memory 
> stick” is an RMB=0 or an RMB=1 device.
>
> One wag has suggested that the RMB bit definition be conditionalized 
> on the presence/absence of a coincident Logical Unit Reset condition 
> or I_T Nexus Loss condition, something along the lines of…
> “A removable medium (RMB) bit set to zero indicates that the medium is 
> not removable _without resulting in a Logical Unit Reset condition 
> (see SAM-6) or an I_T Nexus Loss condition (see SAM-6)_. A RMB bit set 
> to one indicates that the medium is removable _with no concurrent 
> Logical Unit Reset condition or I_T Nexus Loss condition_.”
>
> How says the T10 body politic?
>
> Thanks,
>
> .Ralph_______________________________________________
> T10 mailing list_
> _T10 at t10.org <mailto:T10 at t10.org>_
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>
>
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