Draft minutes of SAS Working Group Meeting -- January 13-14, 2003

John Lohmeyer lohmeyer at t10.org
Wed Jan 15 14:47:14 PST 2003


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <lohmeyer at t10.org>
*

Accredited Standards Committee*
InterNational Committee for Information Technology Standards (INCITS)

                                                   Doc. No.: T10/03-046r0
                                                       Date: January 15, 2003
                                                   Reply to: John Lohmeyer
To:         T10 Membership
From:       Ralph Weber Subject:    SAS Protocol WG -- Jan 13-14, 2003
            Portland, OR

Agenda
1.     Opening Remarks
2.     Approval of Agenda
3.     Attendance and Membership
4.     Old Business
4.1      SAS Working Draft Review (SAS) [Elliott]
4.2      SAS Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Parameters (02-324r0) [Gardner]
4.3      CRC on Frame Header [Roberts]
4.4      Transport Layer Retries (02-487r0) [Jones]
5.     New Business
5.1      SAS Revision 3 T10 letter ballot comment resolution (03-055r0)
[Elliott]
5.2      SAS Expander internal devices (03-034r1) [Fairchild]
5.3      SAS Definitions (03-022r1) [Evans]
5.4      SAS Requests and Confirmations (03-023r0) [Evans]
5.5      SAS Port Layer Description Modifications (03-024r0) [Evans]
5.6      SAS SMP error codes (03-058r0) [Fairchild]
5.7      SAS BER Comments [Penokie]
5.8      SAS External Cable Length [Penokie]
5.9      Near End Analog Loopback [Penokie]
5.10     LED Driver [Cox]
5.11     Keying Comments [Dell]
5.12     External Cable Delay HOLD/HOLDA [Elliott]
6.     Review of Recommendations
7.     Meeting Schedule
8.     Adjournment

Results of Meeting

1.     Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer called the meeting to order at 9:40 a.m. Monday, January 13,
2003. He thanked Cris Simpson of Intel for hosting the meeting.

2.     Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with no changes.

The following items was added or revised during the course of the meeting:

5.6      SAS SMP error codes (03-058r0) [Fairchild]
5.7      SAS BER Comments [Penokie]
5.8      SAS External Cable Length [Penokie]
5.9      Near End Analog Loopback [Penokie]
5.10     LED Driver [Cox]
5.11     Keying Comments [Dell]
5.12     External Cable Delay HOLD/HOLDA [Elliott]


3.     Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum attendance
requirements for T10 membership. Working group meetings are open to any person
or organization directly and materially affected by T10's scope of work. The
following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Ron Roberts        P  Adaptec, Inc.             Ron_Roberts at adaptec.com
Mr. Robert Snively     P  Brocade Comm. Systems,    rsnively at brocade.com
                          Inc.
Mr. John Tyndall       A  Crossroads Systems, Inc.  jtyndall at crossroads.com
Mr. James A. Lott, Jr. P  Dallas Semiconductor      jim.lott at dalsemi.com
Mr. David Freeman      V  Data Transit Corp.        david.freeman at data-
                                                    transit.com
Mr. Kevin Marks        P  Dell Computer Corp.       kevin_marks at dell.com
Mr. Robert H. Nixon    P  Emulex                    bob.nixon at emulex.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     P  ENDL Texas                roweber at acm.org
Mr. Mike Fitzpatrick   P  Fujitsu                   mfitzpatrick at fcpa.
                                                    fujitsu.com
Mr. Nathan Hastad      P  General Dynamics          nathan.hastad at gd-ais.com
Mr. Rob Elliott        P  Hewlett Packard Co.       Elliott at hp.com
Dr. William Ham        A  Hewlett Packard Co.       bill_ham at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Steven Fairchild   V  Hewlett Packard Co.       Steve.Fairchild at hp.com
Mr. Werner Glinka      AV Hitachi America           werner.glinka at attglobal.
                                                    net
Mr. Dan Colegrove      AV Hitachi Global Storage    dcolegro at us.ibm.com
                          Tech.
Mr. Hitoshi Ogawa      AV Hitachi Ltd.              h-ogawa at gm.str.hitachi.
                                                    co.jp
Mr. Steven Wirtz       V  I-TECH Corp.              steve_wirtz at i-tech.com
Mr. George O. Penokie  P  IBM / Tivoli Systems      gop at us.ibm.com
Mr. Pak Seto           V  Intel                     pak-lung.seto at intel.com
Mr. Cris Simpson       P  Intel Corp.               cris.simpson at intel.com
Mr. Robert Sheffield   A  Intel Corp.               robert.l.sheffield at intel.
                                                    com
Mr. Richard Beckett    V  Intel Corp.               richard.c.beckett at intel.
                                                    com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at ix.netcom.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  LSI Logic Corp.           lohmeyer at t10.org
Mr. William Petty      A  LSI Logic Corp.           william.petty at lsil.com
Mr. Brad Besmer        V  LSI Logic Corp.           brad.besmer at lsil.com
Mr. Brian Day          V  LSI Logic Corp.           brian.day at lsil.com
Mr. Tim Hoglund        V  LSI Logic Corp.           tim.hoglund at lsil.com
Mr. Mark Evans         P  Maxtor Corp.              mark_evans at maxtor.com
Mr. Russ Brown         V  Maxtor Corp.              russ_brown at maxtor.com
Mr. Rob Haydt          A  Microsoft Corp.           robhay at microsoft.com
Mr. James R. (Bob)     P  Network Appliance Inc.    bob at netapp.com
Davis
Mr. Bill Galloway      P  Pivot3, Inc.              billg at pivot3.com
Mr. Keith W. Parker    V  PLOSkit, Inc.             Keith_Parker at PLOSkit.com
Mr. Ting Li Chan       V  QLogic Corp.              ting.chan at qlogic.com
Mr. Arie Krantz        V  QLogic Corp.              l_krantz at qlc.com
Mr. Jim Jones          A  Quantum Corp.             jim.jones at quantum.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     P  Seagate Technology        gerry.houlder at seagate.com
Mr. Jim Coomes         V  Seagate Technology        jim.coomes at seagate.com
Mr. John Worden        V  Seagate Technology        john.worden at seagate.com
Mr. Vit Novak          P  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    vit.novak at sun.com
Mr. Robert Kando       V  Texas Instruments         Robert.Kando at ti.com
Mr. Haluk Aytac        V  Velio                     haluk at velio.com
Mr. Kenneth Hirata     P  Vixel Corp.               Ken.Hirata at Vixel.com

44 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             AV   -  Advisory Member
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor


4.     Old Business

4.1    SAS Working Draft Review (SAS) [Elliott]

Discussion of this topic was deferred to the next meeting.

4.2    SAS Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Parameters (02-324r0) [Gardner]

In the absence of Ed Gardner, discussion of this topic was deferred to the
next meeting.

4.3    CRC on Frame Header [Roberts]

Ron Roberts asked that discussion of this topic be deferred to the next
meeting.

4.4    Transport Layer Retries (02-487r0) [Jones]

Jim Jones presented a proposal to add transport layer retries in SAS
(02-487r0). During the first day of the meeting, the group reviewed the needs
that the proposal is trying to address, the limits to which various component
developers are willing to go (e.g., HBA issues), and how best to develop a
detailed proposal. Jim agreed to work with interested parties overnight and
return with a more detailed proposal on the second day of the meeting.

Since insufficient progress was made overnight, Brian Day asked that
discussion of this topic be deferred to the next meeting.

5.     New Business

5.1    SAS Revision 3 T10 letter ballot comment resolution (03-055r0) [Elliott]

Rob Elliott led the group in a discussion of the letter ballot comments on
SAS. Document 03-055r0 contains the proposed responses to the letter ballot
comments to date.

Rob Elliott moved that the group accept the comment in 7.1.4.4 that increases
the number of broadcast primitives from 4 to 8. Bob Nixon seconded the motion.
The motion passed on a vote of 14:0:4.

George Penokie moved that one of the new broadcast-reserved primitives be made
a broadcast-reserved-changed primitive. Bill Galloway seconded the motion. The
motion passed on a vote of 16:2:3.

Rob Elliott moved that one of the broadcast-reserved primitives be made vendor
specific. Tim Hoglund seconded the motion. The motion failed on a vote of
2:14:4.

Rob Elliott moved the comment regarding the 20 dword rule in 7.1.6.3 be
accepted. Bill Galloway seconded the motion. The motion passed on a vote of
11:0:6.

Ken Hirata moved that 64 entry limit of the number of indices in fanout
expanders be removed. Bob Nixon seconded the motion. Concerns were raised
about interoperability with no standardization, but they were countered with
claims that degraded operation is possible in all cases. The motion passed on
a vote of 10:1:6.

In response to a comment requesting an additional length field in the Report
Manufacturer Information response data, John Lohmeyer conducted a straw poll.

Additional length in RMI only - 2
Additional length in all response formats - 0
Do not add additional length fields until needed - 10

Bob Scheffield moved that the Microsoft comment be rejected (note that there
is only one Microsoft comment on SAS and that comment requests the removal of
the STP affiliation feature). Tim Hoglund seconded the motion.

After a lengthy discussion of what problem the affiliation feature is intended
to solve, Bob and Tim agreed to withdraw the motion.

The group tentatively agreed to respond to comment by adding a small number of
model paragraphs describing how the affiliation feature is intended to be
used.

Rob Elliot moved that all comments requesting removal of labels on transitions
in state diagrams be rejected. Dennis Moore seconded the motion. The motion
passed on a vote of 7:3:2.

George Penokie moved that the comment requesting the removal of note 12 be
accepted. Mark Evans seconded the motion. The motion passed on a vote of
5:1:10.

5.2    SAS Expander internal devices (03-034r1) [Fairchild]

Steve Fairchild presented a proposal to clarify the discussion of expander
internal devices (03-034r1). The group requested that a mechanism be defined
for discovering whether a phy is one of the newly defined expander internal
phys and several options for accomplishing this were discussed. Other minor
changes were requested.

Steve asked the group to consider changing the number of edge devices allowed
on an expander from 64 to either 128 or 256. The main consideration was the
number of routing table entries in expanders, particularly fanout expanders.
John Lohmeyer conducted a straw poll:

  phy count 64 - 0
  phy count 128 - 6
  phy count 256 - 2

Steve agreed to prepare a new version of the proposal.

5.3    SAS Definitions (03-022r1) [Evans]

Mark Evans presented a proposal to coordinate the SAS definitions with each
other and with SATA (03-022r0). It was noted that the proposal eliminates
several definitions that attempt to apply SAM concepts to ATA devices. In
response to questions, Mark agreed that he needs to work with Rob to insure
that the terms described by the deleted definitions are not used in SAS, that
work appears to involve primarily clause 4.

Mark led the group through the proposed changes. Several corrections were
requested and Mark agreed to prepare a new revision.

Mark Evans moved that 03-022r1 (r0 as revised) be accepted for inclusion in
SAS. George Penokie seconded the motion. The motion passed on a vote of
16:0:2.

5.4    SAS Requests and Confirmations (03-023r0) [Evans]

Mark Evans presented a proposal that details the flows of requests and
confirmations between SAS layers (03-023r0). The group requested several
changes and Mark agreed to prepare a new revision. Rob noted that the document
may be incorporated in SAS as the resolution to a letter ballot comment.

5.5    SAS Port Layer Description Modifications (03-024r0) [Evans]

Mark Evans presented a brief summary of the proposed port layer description
rewrite (03-024r0) but also asked that discussion and approval of the proposal
be deferred to the next meeting.

The open issues raised by John Worden were cited as a key reason for deferring
the approval vote, because Mark wanted a chance to review John's issues and
revise the proposal accordingly.

5.6    SAS SMP error codes (03-058r0) [Fairchild]

Steve Fairchild reviewed a proposal to eliminate overlapping SMP error codes
(03-058r0). Concerns were raised over how to represent which responses are
valid in the various SMP functions and it was agreed that the information
should be represented by the method is an editorial issue.

Steve Fairchild moved that 03-058r0 be recommended for inclusion in SAS. Steve
Wirtz seconded the motion. In the absence of any objections, the motion passed
unanimously.

5.7    SAS BER Comments [Penokie]

George Penokie led a discussion of the importance or unimportance of BER (Bit
Error Rate) in SAS. Bill Ham, Alvin Cox and several others attempted (without
success) to convince George that all BER information in SAS is very necessary.
Eventually, it was agreed that every occurrence of BER in SAS be inspected and
agreement reached by the group to keep them, remove them, or reword them to
emphasize a preference for the use of better BERs than those stated in SAS.

5.8    SAS External Cable Length [Penokie]

George Penokie requested inclusion of cable length specifications in SAS.

The group agreed to add the following:

These signal specifications are consistent with using good quality cable
assemblies constructed with shielded twinex cable with 24 gauge solid wire up
to eight meters in length without using any form of equalization (e.g.,
transmitter pre-emphasis, receiver adaptive equalization, or passive cable
equalization).

George noted that the wire gauge has to be stated in ISO phrasing.

5.9    Near End Analog Loopback [Penokie]

George Penokie asked the group to consider removing the near end analog
loopback feature.

George Penokie moved that the group recommend that near end analog loopback be
removed from SAS. Mark Evans seconded the motion. The motion passed on a vote
of 8:2:10.

5.10   LED Driver [Cox]

Alvin Cox reported that the phy group left the required behavior for the LED
driver unchanged, but that the requirements have been clarified extensively.

5.11   Keying Comments [Dell]

Alvin Cox reported that the keying comments from Dell were rejected by the phy
working group. He noted that the current connector is not able to support
robust keying.

5.12   External Cable Delay HOLD/HOLDA [Elliott]

Rob Elliott reported that the timings on hold and hold acknowledge assume a
cable delay of no more than 50 nanoseconds.


6.     Review of Recommendations

John Lohmeyer noted that the following recommendations were made during this
meeting:

Accept the comment in 7.1.4.4 that increases the number of broadcast
primitives from 4 to 8. [14:0:4]
Make one of the new broadcast-reserved primitives a broadcast-reserved-changed
primitive. [16:2:3]
Accept the comment regarding the 20 dword rule in 7.1.6.3. [11:0:6]
Remove the 64 entry limit of the number of indices in fanout
expanders.[10:1:6]
Remove near end analog loop back. [8:2:10]
Remove note 12. [5:1:10]
SAS Definitions (03-022r1) [Evans] {r0 as revised, unanimous}
SAS SMP error codes (03-058r0) [Fairchild] {unanimous}


7.     Meeting Schedule

SAS Protocol Working Group meetings are scheduled for:

Monday-Tuesday, March 10-11, 2003 commencing at 10 a.m., or ten minutes
following the conclusion of the SPI Working Group meeting which ever is
earlier in Dallas, TX at the Crowne Plaza Suites Hotel (972-233-7600), hosted
by Texas Instruments. If there is no SPI Working Group meeting, the SAS
Protocol Working Group meeting will commence at 9:00 a.m.

It was noted that a SAS editing meeting is planned for Friday, January 17
commencing at 8:00 a.m.

Holding a face-to-face meeting in the second half of February was discussed,
but no specific dates, times, or locations were agreed, because no volunteer
hosts were identified.

A SAS letter ballot comment resolution teleconference is planned for Tuesday,
January 21, 2003 at 11:00 a.m. until 2:00 p.m. EST. Details will be posted on
the T10 reflector.

Additional teleconference calls may be announced on the T10 reflector as
needed.

8.     Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 7:00 p.m. on Tuesday January 14, 2003.

 
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