Minutes of the Joint T10/T11.3 Activity Adhoc meeting March 6,2000

WYATT,STEWART (HP-Boise,ex1) stewart_wyatt at hp.com
Fri Mar 10 12:33:18 PST 2000

* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* "WYATT,STEWART (HP-Boise,ex1)" <stewart_wyatt at hp.com>
Joint T10/T11.3 Activity Working Group AdHoc Meeting Minutes
Dallas, Texas, March 6, 2000
Stewart Wyatt, Secretary

1. Introductions 			Dale LaFollette

The facilitator, Dale LaFollette called the meeting to order at 9AM. He
thanked TI for hosting the meeting and had the participants introduce

2. Approve this agenda: 		T11/00-138v0 			Dale

Approved as modified in these minutes.

3. Approve 01/13/00 minutes: 	T11/00-118v0 			Stewart

Approved with two amendments as noted in reflector traffic. Stewart will
issue revised minutes with the corrections.
4. Review Old Action Items:
Stewart Wyatt

#1. Carl Zeitler - Update the Out-Of-Order proposal drawings in
T10/00-137r0. Completed
#2. Carl Zeitler - Determine the correct response to a lost ACK: BA_RJT or
BA_ACC. On today's agenda
#3. Bob Snively - End exchange cases in FC-PH does not include the class 3
case of lost FCP_CONF. Needs to be added to FC-FS. Check for other cases. On
#5. Paul Suhler - SSC letter ballot comment requesting restoring the Set
Capacity command. Paul will investigate some other means of limiting the
available capacity of a large tape. Completed and on today's agenda
#6. Neil Wanamaker - Revise proposal defining behavior with both target and
initiator bits set in PRLI. Ongoing
#7. Paul Suhler - Revise proposal for Large Block Addresses in the SSC.
#8. Charles Binford: Proposal to notify initiators of cleared commands to be
taken to the SCSI working group. On going
#9.  Bob Snively: Include revised Annex E (T11/99-340v3) in the next
revision of the FCP-2. Completed in FCP-2 revision 4. This item is still
open and the subject of a letter ballot comment. Closed
#10.  Bill Martin: Bob Snively requests that Bill Martin review the
Out-Of-Order proposal looking for corner case problems. Bob has not made the
request to Bill

+++ T10 +++
5. New Business

A.	SSC Large Block Addresses T10/00-135r1 Paul Suhler

Paul reviewed his proposal. Dale asked for a vote of acceptance for a future
revision of the SSC. George suggested that it be taken to the plenary for a
vote. Ralph will reserve the op codes. 

Dale LaFollette made the motion that this working group propose to the T10
plenary to accept this proposal, 00-135r1 as amended, for inclusion in a
future version of the SSC (SSC-2). Paul Suhler seconded the motion, which
passed with 9 in favor, 0 opposed and 1 abstained.

B.	SSC Public Review Comment T10/00-159r0 Paul Suhler

Paul considered several options using mode pages. He found none of them to
be acceptable. Neil Wanamaker was concerned that mode pages would apply to
the device and not to the medium. In this case and some others the mode page
should apply exclusively to that particular medium. There was some
discussion on that point. After considering the options, Paul Suhler
recommended that the Set Capacity command be revived for a future version of
the SSC. 

Paul made a motion that this working group recommend that T10 reject his
public review comment and consider the concept proposed in the comment for
inclusion in a future version of the SSC. Seconded by Dale LaFollette. For
10, opposed 0, abstained 3.

C.	New version of the SSC.

Dale noted that Dave Peterson has indicated that he would be willing to be
the editor of a new version of the SSC. Dave also will start the preparation
of a new project proposal for SSC-2 to be presented in a future T10 working
group meeting.

6. New Business
A.	BA_ACC Carl Zeitler T11/00-133v1

Carl worked through some overheads to define the issue. A discussion
followed about how a target would avoid confusing a new command with the
same OX-ID, with the previous one with the missing ACK - a unique RX-ID is
required. Charles Binford and Bob Snively looked at some multiple frame loss
cases which complicated sorting out the exchanges. As the discussion began
to bog down, Carl said he would take it off line and sort the issues out.

B.	R_R_TOV Carl Zeitler T11/00-145v0

Carl reported that this issue resulted from a conversation with Rob Basham
(IBM). After a discussion about recovering resources in Class 3 after an
error, the conclusion was reached that RR_TOV needs to be lengthened. Carl's
example assumed an FCP-RSP is lost and then the SRR is lost also. Carl
calculated the minimum RR_TOV to recover from this double error and it needs
to be 7*REC_TOV. Do we increase the timeout for the double error case or
consider it an unrecoverable error and abort the exchange?  Carl prefers
changing RR_TOV.

Charles Binford asked it we would have an in-order timeout shorter than an
out-of-order timeout? Carl said he would prefer one set of values that
everyone uses. Carl suggested that action be deferred until next month and
that the group review the proposal.

+++Joint T10/T11.3+++
7. FCP-2 T10 Working Drafts FCP2R04 Bob Snively
Letter Ballot Results/Comments T10/00-005r0
Letter Ballot Comments T10/00-150r1

Bob wants to cover all technical comments as perceived by either him or the
commenter and all editorial comments that he disagrees with.

Bob has color coded his letter ballot comments document. The black text is
unresolved editorial comments while the red text is unresolved technical
comments. Blue text are comments that have been resolved and accepted.

George Penokie and Ralph Weber discussed whether the FCP-2 should reference
another document by mnemonic or number? The decision was to use the

George Penokie noted that killing the MCM proposal reverts Mode Page 19 to
its original length. Bob agreed and will correct the text.

Bob spent the rest of the meeting and the following SCSI Protocol
meeting reviewing the comments from Crossroads and HP.

8. New Business

9. Next Meeting Requirements Dale LaFollette

Dale commented that we will need all the time we can get in the next

10 Review New Action Items: Stewart Wyatt

New Action Items:
#1 Paul Suhler - Revise proposal for Set Command, T10/00-159v0.
#2 Ralph Weber - will take the recommendations to the plenary made in
today's meeting to the SCSI plenary.
#3 Carl Zeitler - Continue BA_ACC discussion off line and return with a
#4 Group - Review Carl's proposal extending RR_TOV proposal for action next
#5 Dave Peterson - Create and champion new SSC version proposal

Old Forwarded Action Items:
#6 Bob Snively - FS end exchange cases needs to include class 3 of lost
FCP_CONF. Check for other new end exchange cases.
#7 Neil Wanamaker - Revise proposal defining behavior when both target and
initiator bits are set in PRLI.
#8 Charles Binford - Proposal for target to inform initiator of cleared
#9 Bob Snively - Request Bill Martin to review out-of-order proposal for
corner case problems.

11. Adjournment: The meeting adjourned at noon.

Note: FCP-2 Letter Ballot Comment Resolution will continue in the SCSI
Protocol meeting from 1-6 PM!

Dale LaFollette	StorageTek	Erich Oetting	StorageTek
Bob Snively	SUN	Carl Zeitler	Compaq
Stewart Wyatt	HP	Paul Suhler	Seagate
Jim Coomes	Seagate	Matt Wakeley	HP/Agilient
Arlan Stone	UNISYS	Pak Seto	Quantum		
Neil Wanamaker	Crossroads Systems	John Tyndall	Crossroads Systems
Gene Milligan	Seagate	Ralph Weber	ENDL	
Nathan Hastad	General Dynamics Information Systems
Eugene Lew	Fujitsu	George Penokie	IBM
Charles Binford	LSI Logic	Pak Seto	Quantum	
Mike Fitzpatrick	Fujitsu CPA	Paul Aloisi	TI
John Scheible	IBM
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