Draft Minutes SPI-3 Working Group - May 3-4, 1999

John Lohmeyer lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Fri May 7 15:31:51 PDT 1999


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at symbios.com), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com>
*
A PDF of these minutes is available at:

  ftp://ftp.symbios.com/pub/standards/io/t10/document.99/99-175r0.pdf


Accredited Standards Committee*
National Committee for Information Technology Standards (NCITS)

                                                    Doc. No.: T10/99-175r0
                                                        Date: May 7, 1999
                                                    Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:      T10 Membership
From:    Ralph Weber & John Lohmeyer
Subject: SPI-3 Working Group Meeting -- May 3-4, 1999
         Manchester, NH

Agenda

1.     Opening Remarks
2.     Approval of Agenda
3.     Attendance and Membership
4.     SPI-3 Topics
4.1      Proposed Modifications to Annex A (99-174) [Aloisi/et.al.]
4.2      Review of SPI-3 working draft [Penokie]
4.3      A Common CRC Method for Packetized and Legacy Devices (99-141)
[Lamers]
4.4      Fairness Feature Control in SPI-3 (99-160) [Elliott/Houlder]
4.5      Groundwork for Expander Communication (99-169r1) [Lamers/Bastiani]
4.6      Packetized cleanup and improvements (99-170r1) [Galloway]
4.7      Restrict QAS to Packetized (99-173r0) [Galloway]
4.8      Implied Assumptions in SPI-3 Timing Budget (99-171) [Ham]
4.9      Asynchronous Information Protection (99-119r4) [Evans/Lashay]
4.10     Spec issue on MSE leakage current in SPI-3 (reflector message)
[Lohmeyer]
4.11     Change CRC timing values (99-185r0) [Elliott & Childs]
4.12     Slow DT Timing Revision Proposal for SPI-3 (99-183) [Milligan]
4.13     Packetized Extensions (99-139r4) [Lamers/Penokie/Milligan]
4.14     SPI-3 Technical Changes (99-184r0) [Penokie]
4.15     SPI-3 Table Restructuring [Smith]
5.     SPI-4 Topics
5.1      Project Proposal for SPI-4 (Ultra320 SCSI) (99-140r2) [Lamers]
5.2      Staged Contact Resistance (98-240r0) [Herrmann]
5.3      Load Compensation (98-238r1) [Novak]
5.4      Cable/System Simulation Issues [Wallace]
5.5      Next Generation Cable Performance [Ham]
6.     Meeting Schedule
7.     Adjournment

Results of Meeting

1.     Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 1:10 p.m., Monday
May 3, 1999.  He thanked Zane Daggett of Hitachi Cable Manchester for hosting
the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of the
attendance list was circulated.

2.     Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions and changes:

4.10     Spec issue on MSE leakage current in SPI-3 (reflector message)
[Lohmeyer]
4.11     Change CRC timing values (99-185r0) [Elliott & Childs]
4.12     Slow DT Timing Revision Proposal for SPI-3 (99-183) [Milligan]
4.13     Packetized Extensions (99-139r4) [Lamers/Penokie/Milligan]

The following agenda items were added or revised during the course of the
meeting:

4.9      Asynchronous Information Protection (99-119r4) [Evans/Lashay]
4.14     SPI-3 Technical Changes (99-184r) [Penokie]
4.15     SPI-3 Table Restructuring [Smith]
3.     Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum attendance
requirements for T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to any
person or organization directly and materially affected by T10's scope of
work.  The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers P  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at ieee.org
Mr. Vincent Bastiani   A# Adaptec, Inc.             bastiani at corp.adaptec.com
Mr. Wally Bridgewater  A# Adaptec, Inc.             wally at eng.adaptec.com
Mr. Bill Mable         P  Amphenol Interconnect     bmable at spectra.net
Mr. Gregg Neely        O  Andataco                  greggn at andataco.com
Mr. Ron Roberts        A  Apple Computer            rkroberts at aol.com
Mr. Douglas Wagner     P  Berg Electronics          wagnerdl at bergelect.com
Mr. Bill Galloway      P  BREA Technologies, Inc.   billg at breatech.com
Mr. Dennis Lang        A  Circuit Assembly Corp.    dennisl at circuitassembly.
                                                    com
Mr. Robert C. Elliott  P  Compaq Computer Corp.     Robert.Elliott at compaq.com
Mr. Douglas Hagerman   A# Compaq Computer Corp.     douglas.hagerman at compaq.
                                                    com
Dr. William Ham        A  Compaq Computer Corp.     bill.ham at digital.com
Mr. Charles Tashbook   P  Dallas Semiconductor      charles.tashbook at dalsemi.
                                                    com
Mr. Ben-Koon Lin       P  Fujitsu (FCPA)            blin at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Ms. Jacqueline Sylvia  A  Hitachi Cable Manchester  jsylvia at hcm.hitachi.com
Mr. Zane Daggett       P  Hitachi Cable Manchester, zdaggett at hcm.hitachi.com
                          Inc
Mr. George O. Penokie  P  IBM Corp.                 gop at us.ibm.com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Louis Grantham     P  Linfinity Micro           lgrantham at linfinity.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  LSI Logic Corp.           lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A  LSI Logic Corp.           roweber at acm.org
Mr. Frank Gasparik     V  LSI Logic Corp.           frank.gasparik at lsil.com
Mr. Matt Muresan       V  LSI Logic Corp.           matt.muresan at lsil.com
Mr. Steve Stefek       V  LSI Logic Corp.           steve.stefek at lsil.com
Ms. Jie Fan            P  Madison Cable Corp.       jfan at madisoncable.com
Mr. Charley Riegger    A  Maxtor Corp.              charles_riegger at maxtor.
                                                    com
Mr. Jay Neer           A  Molex Inc.                jneer at molex.com
Mr. Allen King         A  Mylex Corp.               allenk at mylex.com
Mr. Richard Moore      V  QLogic Corp.              r_moore at qlc.com
Mr. Mark Evans         P  Quantum Corp.             mark.evans at quantum.com
Mr. Richard Uber       V  Quantum Corp.             duber at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Daniel (Dan) F.    O  Seagate Technology        daniel_f_smith at notes.
Smith                                               seagate.com
Mr. Mayank R. Patel    V  Seagate Technology        mayank_r_patel at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Bill Gintz         T  Seus, Inc.                wcgintz at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Robert Morris      P  Silicon Systems, Inc.     bob.morris at ti.com
Mr. Tom Schneider      V  Texas Instruments         tom.schneider at ti.com
Mr. Paresh Sheth       V  Texas Instruments         paresh.sheth at ti.com
Mr. Bob Gannon         V  The JPM Co.               rgannon at jpmo.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Richard S. DeMars  V  Unitrode Corporation      demars at unitrode.com
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital           Jeffrey.L.Williams at wdc.
Williams                  Corporation               com
Mr. Steve Nelson       V  Western Digital           stephen.e.nelson at wdc.com
                          Corporation

44 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor

4.     SPI-3 Topics

4.1    Proposed Modifications to Annex A (99-174) [Aloisi/et.al.]

99-174 was discussed briefly, but concerns turned SPI-3 Timing Budget
assumptions (see 4.8).  In a discussion led by Bill Ham, the group agreed that
a many assumptions exist in SPI-3 and defined the first two entries in that
list:

1)     The receiver will not detect a state change with an overdrive magnitude
of less than 30 mV
- negative going: +30 mV to 0 will not detect
- positive going: -30 mV to 0 will not detect; and
2)     The positive going and negative going D.C. offsets in the receiver are
the same (i.e., no hysteresis)

It was agreed to hold a meeting in either Colorado Springs or Denver on the
afternoon of 26 May and all day on 27 May.  The objective of the meeting will
be develop a proposal for changes in SPI-3 clause 9 and Annex A regarding
SPI-3 Timing Budget issues.

Paul Aloisi questioned the voltage range at the end of the first paragraph in
A.4.1 and suggested conflicts with table 16.  George Penokie noted that table
16 specifies currents and the paragraph voltage, which means that the two
statements are not in conflict.

George asked that the group to recommend incorporation of 99-174r0 in SPI-3.
Gene Milligan objected to inclusion because the work in this area is
incomplete and that no consideration is being given to correcting SPI-2.
George countered that the drive current information in SPI-3 is sufficiently
inaccurate that the 99-174 should be incorporated to improve SPI-3 (even if
perfection is not achieved).  The recommendation was approved 15:1.

4.2    Review of SPI-3 working draft [Penokie]

George Penokie questioned the increase of cable impedance that appeared to
result from the document 99-111, which was recommended for inclusion in SPI-3
by the January SPI-3 working group.  Bill Ham explained how the new
specifications make cable construction easier.  Bill and George discussed the
status and plans for the cable testing annex.

George Penokie began the review at the Foreword, page xvi, and complete a
review of the entire document.

4.3    A Common CRC Method for Packetized and Legacy Devices (99-141) [Lamers]

Larry Lamers stated that no proposal would be available until SPI-3 is
forwarded.  He stated that this item could be deleted from the agenda until
then.

4.4    Fairness Feature Control in SPI-3 (99-160) [Elliott/Houlder]

Rob Elliott presented a proposal to better define controls over arbitration
fairness in SPI-3 (and incidental to this meeting, in SPC-2, and FCP-2).
George Penokie asked that the group to recommend inclusion of 99-160r1 in
SPI-3 (SPI-3 changes only).  The group approved the recommendation 14:2:2.

4.5    Groundwork for Expander Communication (99-169r1) [Lamers/Bastiani]

In response to a question from John Lohmeyer, Bill Galloway and George Penokie
verified that the proposed behavior is required for initiators that support
QAS and strongly recommended but not required for all initiators (as it may
become required in SPI-4).  In the absence of any objections, the group
recommended that 99-169r1 be approved for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.6    Packetized cleanup and improvements (99-170r1) [Galloway]

Bill Galloway presented three proposed corrections to the information units
definitions in SPI-3.  In the absence of any objections, the working group
recommended that T10 approve 99-170r1 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.7    Restrict QAS to Packetized (99-173r0) [Galloway]

Bill Galloway presented a brief proposal that QAS be restricted to information
units in SPI-3.  He noted that QAS is broken for non-packetized and that the
previous working group concluded that eliminating usage of QAS would be easier
than fixing it.  In the absence of any objections, the working group
recommended that T10 approve 99-173r0 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.8    Implied Assumptions in SPI-3 Timing Budget (99-171) [Ham]

See 4.1.

4.9    Asynchronous Information Protection (99-119r4) [Evans/Lashay]

Mark Evans noted that the latest revision of the proposal has been modified to
look like an annex, as requested by the last working group.  He noted
corrections in figure x1 that will appear in revision 5.  Concerns were raised
about the C code example not compiling on some compilers.

Jeff Williams questioned enabling the protection without PPR.  Enabling and
disabling issues were discussed, driven by concerns about hot plug replacement
of a protection drive with a non-protection drive and avoiding bus resets in
such cases.

Mark agreed to revise the proposal based on group comments and bring the
revised proposal to the July SPI-3 working group meeting for review.

4.10   Spec issue on MSE leakage current in SPI-3 (reflector message)
[Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer reviewed the T10 reflector discussion of MSE leakage current
requirements.  He noted that differences expressed on this topic on the
reflector concern the differences between 3.3 V and 5 V chips.  Based on
inputs from the group, John agreed to draft a proposal for specific changes to
SPI-3.

Later, John Lohmeyer presented a draft figure showing proposed leakage current
requirements.  Bill Gintz and Wally Bridgewater recommended that negative
current values be covered by the figure.  Bill Ham suggested a change in the
title of the figure.  John agreed to bring a fully developed proposal to the
July SPI-3 working group meeting.

4.11   Change CRC timing values (99-185r0) [Elliott & Childs]

Rob Elliott questioned the need for the extra 10 ns of setup time accorded to
the P_CRCA line and noted that, since the line is parity for single transition
transfers, the requirement causes problems for some expander designs.  Rob
proposed that we specify the same transmit and receive setup times for P_CRCA
as specified for the other data lines.  As, an alternate Rob proposed better
correlation between the current values and the times for other lines.

It was generally agreed that consultations were necessary with product
engineers.  So, the group agreed to defer consideration of this proposal to
the July meeting.

4.12   Slow DT Timing Revision Proposal for SPI-3 (99-183) [Milligan]

Gene Milligan presented a proposal to change the double-transition timing for
Fast-40.  Wally Bridgewater requested changes that allow Fast-40 receivers
more latitude.  Bill Galloway suggested that cable contributions to skew
should not be reduced to make the change.  Changes were marked up on the
proposal, but the majority preferred the proposal as written.

Bill Galloway requested minor changes in the timing table and Gene agreed to
make the changes in a new revision.

Gene Milligan asked that the group recommend incorporation of 99-183r1 (r0 as
revised) in SPI-3.  The recommendation was approved 9:1.

4.13   Packetized Extensions (99-139r4) [Lamers/Penokie/Milligan]

Larry Lamers presented the data streaming and CRC interval proposal as revised
by the April working group meeting.  In the absence of any objections, the
working group recommended that 99-139r4 be approved for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.14   SPI-3 Technical Changes (99-184r0) [Penokie]

George Penokie presented a list of technical changes in SPI-3.  He noted that
the list is a collection of unrelated changes that have been requested by
individuals or arose during working group discussions.  George asked that the
working group recommend inclusion of 99-184r1 (r0 as revised) in SPI-3.  The
group approved the recommendation 18:1.  Jeff Williams objected to including
the proposal because it prohibits ending a packet transfer before the end of
the packet.

4.15   SPI-3 Table Restructuring [Smith]

Dan Smith presented some preliminary ideas he was considering proposing as
changes in SPI-3 clause 7.  He noted that this was a rough presentation of
preliminary ideas and not a proposal for immediate action.  He described
ambiguities and inconsistencies in the tables.  A few changes to SPI-3
resulted from this review.

5.     SPI-4 Topics

5.1    Project Proposal for SPI-4 (Ultra320 SCSI) (99-140r2) [Lamers]

Larry Lamers reviewed the SPI-4 project proposal.  John Lohmeyer requested
that item 3 be dropped from the list of proposed new work.  Bill Ham was
concerned that item 2 is ahead of the cart because expanders are not defined
in any existing standard.  Several other concerns were raised about the list
of proposed new work.  Larry accepted wording corrections in the list.

In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that 99-140r3
(r2 as revised) be forward by T10 to NCITS as new project proposal.

5.2    Staged Contact Resistance (98-240r0) [Herrmann]

Bill Ham reported that SFF does not have an approved project on this topic.
He described an intent in SFF to define an SCA-3 project to cover the staged
resistance connector when AMP is ready.  However, as of yet no project has
been requested.

John Lohmeyer reviewed the proposal.  He then proposed that SFF reject the
proposal based on the presence of CRC and the Hamming code in SCSI, which he
felt provide adequate, cost-effective answers to the hot plugging problem.
Bill Gintz noted additional skew problems produced by hot plugging that the
connector does not solve.

Larry Lamers requested that this topic be dropped from the T10 agenda because
it's really an SFF topic.

5.3    Load Compensation (98-238r1) [Novak]

John Lohmeyer reported that discussion of load compensation will be deferred
to the July meeting since Vit Novak was not able to attend.

5.4    Cable/System Simulation Issues [Wallace]

Bill Ham expressed concern that no progress is being made on this topic.
Richard Moore volunteered to ask Dean Wallace about the status of this work.

5.5    Next Generation Cable Performance [Ham]

Bill Ham asked that discussion of this topic be deferred to the July meeting.

6.     Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of the SPI-3 Working Group will be Monday, July 12, 1999
commencing at 1 p.m. recessing on Monday evening and continuing until 6 p.m.
on Tuesday, July 13, 1999 at the Double Tree World Arena Hotel (719-576-8900)
in Colorado Springs, CO hosted by LSI Logic Corp.

A SPI-3 editing session is tentatively scheduled in Colorado Springs or Denver
on Monday, May 17, 1999 commencing at 1 p.m. recessing on Monday evening and
continuing until 6 p.m. on Tuesday, May 18, 1999  hosted by LSI Logic Corp.

A SPI-3 timing budget meeting will be held in Colorado Springs or Denver on
Wednesday, May 26, 1999 commencing at 1 p.m. recessing on Wednesday evening
and continuing until 6 p.m. on Thursday, May 17, 1999  hosted by LSI Logic
Corp.

7.     Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 6:50 p.m. on Tuesday May 4, 1999.

--
John Lohmeyer                  Email: lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
LSI Logic Corp.                Voice: +1-719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: +1-719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907              BBS: +1-719-533-7950

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