Draft Minutes of SPI-3 Working Group - March 9, 1999

John Lohmeyer lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Tue Mar 16 16:09:57 PST 1999


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at symbios.com), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com>
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Accredited Standards Committee*
National Committee for Information Technology Standards (NCITS)

                                                    Doc. No.: T10/99-135r0
                                                        Date: March 16, 1999
                                                    Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:       T10 Membership
From:     Ralph Weber /  John Lohmeyer
Subject:  SPI-3 Working Group Meeting -- March 9, 1999
          Harrisburg, PA

Agenda

1.     Opening Remarks
2.     Approval of Agenda
3.     Attendance and Membership
4.     SPI-3 Topics
4.1      Report on March 2nd Cable Testing Meeting
4.2      Staged Contact Resistance (98-240r0) [Herrmann]
4.3      Load Compensation (98-238r1) [Novak]
4.4      QA and Glitch Filters (98-239r0) [Leshay]
4.5      Timing Specification on ATN during synchronous transfers
(99-112r1/99-120r0) [Galloway/Milligan]
4.6      DIFFSENS Timing on bus mode changes (99-113r1) [Galloway]
4.7      Synchronous Transfer Timeout Function (99-102r4) [Lamers]
4.8      Proposed Domain Validation Annex (98-235r2) [Lohmeyer]
4.9      Message Information Unit Definition (99-104r0) [Penokie]
4.10     30 mV vs. 60 mV in figures 44 and 45 (99-127r1) [Gasparik/Aloisi]
4.11     "May not" clarifications in SPI-3 (98-246r1) [Elliott]
4.12     Clarification of interaction of SDTR/WDTR message with PPR message
(99-108r2) [Lohmeyer]
4.13     Packetized CRC Proposal Merger (99-118, -124) [McGrath/Leshay]
4.14     Protection for the Asynchronous Information phases (99-119r1)
[McGrath/Evans/Elliott]
4.15     Setup and hold time measurements for Ultra 160/m (99-131)
[Abou-Jeyah/Bastiani]
4.16     Removing zero length data transfers with CRC (99-132) [Galloway]
4.17     Timing for SCSI RST line (99-133) [Galloway]
4.18     PPR Protocol option negotiation (99-134) [Galloway]
4.19     Patent Letter for SPI-3 from Adaptec (99-138) [Lamers]
4.20     Packet Protocol Extensions (99-139, 99-151) [Milligan/Penokie/Lamers]
4.21     A Common CRC Method for Packetized and Legacy Devices (99-141)
[Lamers]
4.22     Review of SPI-3 working draft [Penokie]
4.23     Slower DT Timing Values (99-155r0) [Milligan]
4.24     DT CRC Description (99-157r0) [Leshay]
5.     SPI-4 Topics
5.1      Project Proposal for SPI-4 (Ultra320 SCSI) (99-140) [Lamers]
6.     Meeting Schedule
7.     Adjournment


Results of Meeting

1.     Opening Remarks

George Penokie, the T10 Vice-chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m.,
Tuesday March 9, 1999.  He thanked John Hill and Beth Shutt of AMP for hosting
the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of the
attendance list was circulated.

2.     Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions and changes:

4.23     Slower DT Timing Values [Milligan]
4.24     DT CRC Description [Leshay]

No agenda items were added during the course of the meeting.

3.     Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum attendance
requirements for T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to any
person or organization directly and materially affected by T10's scope of
work.  The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers P  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at ieee.org
Mr. Vincent Bastiani   A# Adaptec, Inc.             bastiani at corp.adaptec.com
Mr. Scott Lindstrom    P  AMP, Inc.                 slindstr at amp.com
Mr. Charles Brill      A  AMP, Inc.                 cebrill at amp.com
Mr. Elwood Parsons     V  AMP, Inc.                 etparson at amp.com
Mr. Bill Mable         P  Amphenol Interconnect     bmable at spectra.net
Mr. Bill Galloway      P  BREA Technologies, Inc.   billg at breatech.com
Mr. Bob Gannon         O  C&M Corp.                 rgannon at cm-corp.com
Mr. Francesco Liburdi  V  Circuit Assembly Corp.    fliburdi at circuitassembly.

                                                    com
Mr. Edward Haske       P  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Robert C. Elliott  P  Compaq Computer Corp.     Robert.Elliott at compaq.com
Dr. William Ham        A  Compaq Computer Corp.     bill.ham at digital.com
Mr. Neil Wanamaker     O  Crossroads Systems, Inc.  ntw at crossroads.com
Mr. Stephen K. Wilson  O  Crossroads Systems, Inc.  steve at crossroads.com
Mr. Bill Anderson      O  DDK Electronics           bill_anderson@
                                                    ddkconnectors.com
Mr. Ben-Koon Lin       P  Fujitsu (FCPA)            blin at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Mr. Nathan Hastad      O  General Dynamics          nathan.j.hastad at gd-is.com
Mr. Marcos Barrionuevo P  Harting, Inc. of N.       Marcos.Barrionuevo@
                          America                   harting.com
Ms. Jacqueline Sylvia  A  Hitachi Cable Manchester  jsylvia at hcm.hitachi.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.                 gop at us.ibm.com
Mr. Hayden Smith       P  Lasercard Systems Corp.   hsmith at lasercard.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  LSI Logic Corp.           lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A  LSI Logic Corp.           roweber at acm.org
Mr. Frank Gasparik     V  LSI Logic Corp.           frank.gasparik at lsil.com
Mr. Alan Littlewood    V  LSI Logic Corp.           alanl at lsil.com
Mr. Steve Stefek       V  LSI Logic Corp.           steve.stefek at lsil.com
Mr. Makesh             V  Lucent Technologies       makesh at lucent.com
Kothandaraman
Mr. Steve Siegel       V  Lucent Technologies       stefansiegel at lucent.com
Ms. Jie Fan            P  Madison Cable Corp.       jfan at madisoncable.com
Mr. Robert Bellino     V  Madison Cable Corp.       rbellino at madisoncable.com
Mr. Charley Riegger    A  Maxtor Corp.              charles_riegger at maxtor.
                                                    com
Mr. Jay Neer           A  Molex Inc.                jneer at molex.com
Mr. Martin Ogbuokiri   O  Molex Inc.                mogbuokiri at molex.com
Mr. Brian McKean       P  Mylex Corp.               brianm at mylexboulder.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          eag at ophidian.com
Mr. Dean Wallace       A  QLogic Corp.              d_wallace at qlc.com
Mr. Richard Moore      V  QLogic Corp.              r_moore at qlc.com
Mr. Mark Evans         P  Quantum Corp.             mark.evans at quantum.com
Mr. Bruce Leshay       V  Quantum Corp.             bleshay at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Richard Uber       V  Quantum Corp.             duber at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Mayank R. Patel    V  Seagate Technology        mayank_r_patel at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Robert Morris      P  Silicon Systems, Inc.     bob.morris at ti.com
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp.  erich_oetting at stortek.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems          bob.snively at sun.com
                          Computer Co
Mr. Vit Novak          A  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    vit.novak at sun.com
Mr. Kenneth J. Hallam  P  UNISYS Corporation        ken.hallam at unisys.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Donald R. Getty    A  Unitrode Corporation      gettd at unitrode.com
Mr. Richard S. DeMars  V  Unitrode Corporation      demars at unitrode.com
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital           Jeffrey.L.Williams at wdc.
Williams                  Corporation               com

52 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor
4.     SPI-3 Topics

4.1    Report on March 2nd Cable Testing Meeting

Bill Ham made an oral report on the activities of the cable performance
specification meeting and provided an electronic report in 99-156r0.


Concerns were expressed about the length of cables (or length of backplane
etch) being tested.  Requests were made for simulations of cables at various
lengths for the proposed high frequency transfers.  Dean Wallace agreed to
lead this effort and gather some information by the next working group
meeting.

It was noted that the group would not delay publication of SPI-3 for this
annex.  The team working on the annex noted that they might prefer to provide
a subset of the information for an annex in SPI-3 and more information for
SPI-4.

4.2    Staged Contact Resistance (98-240r0) [Herrmann]

Chuck Brill asked that this topic be deferred to the May working group
meeting.

4.3    Load Compensation (98-238r1) [Novak]

Vit presented laboratory and simulation data concerning his load compensation
methods.  The group discussed Vit's presentation.  Concerns were raised about
the simulation information.  It was noted that the results of this work mostly
likely would not be available in time for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.4    QA and Glitch Filters (98-239r0) [Leshay]

Bruce Leshay reported that he had no new proposal on this topic.  He noted
that some members disagree with the assertion that there is a problem.  The
possibility that other proposals under discussion at this meeting (see item
4.14) might address this problem was discussed, with no conclusion reached.
Bruce indicated that approval of certain proposals might cause him to bring
additional corrective proposals to the committee.

4.5    Timing Specification on ATN during synchronous transfers
(99-112r1/99-120r0) [Galloway/Milligan]

Bill Galloway presented a proposal to change the SPI-3 Transmit Setup Time (ST
and DT)  and SPI-3 Receive Setup Time (ST and DT).  The group discussed the
proposed times and replaced a question mark with 45ns.

Timing for the handling of the ATN signal was discussed.  Concerns were raised
about the proposed wording.  Some present wanted to return to the `two deskew
delays' wording, but others worried that a change in the definition of a
deskew delay could make the wording invalid at some future day.

In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously recommended the
proposal as modified (99-112r2) be approved by T10 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.6    DIFFSENS Timing on bus mode changes (99-113r1) [Galloway]

Bill Galloway presented a revision of his proposal defining the timing of
DIFFSENS signal handling.  Questions were raised about the handling of
high-voltage differential, references to terminators, and few other topics.
Bill agreed to revise the proposal.

In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously recommended the
proposal as modified (99-113r2) be approved by T10 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.7    Synchronous Transfer Timeout Function (99-102r4) [Lamers]

Larry Lamers reviewed the proposal, noting that it was discussed in depth in
January.  Larry agreed to prepare revision 5 to replace the `Ralph' field with
`Protocol Identifier'.  In the absence of any objections, the working group
unanimously recommended that 99-102r5 be approved by T10 for inclusion in
SPC-2.

4.8    Proposed Domain Validation Annex (98-235r2) [Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer reported that the group discussed and revised the domain
validation proposal during an informal meeting the previous day.  He agreed to
bring a revised proposal to the next working group meeting.

4.9    Message Information Unit Definition (99-104r0) [Penokie]

George Penokie presented a proposal that allows a return to the message phases
during packetized operation (for the purpose of negotiating out of using
information units).  Corrections were recommended regarding the usage of
`unexpected bus free' in the proposal wording.  A failure condition resulting
in an unknown state for the transfer parameters was discussed, resulting in
changes to the proposal.  George agreed to modify the proposal for approval at
the plenary.

In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously recommended the

proposal as modified (99-104r1) be approved by T10 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.10   30 mV vs. 60 mV in figures 44 and 45 (99-127r1) [Gasparik/Aloisi]

Paul presented a proposal for changes to ST and DT timing requirements.
Several changes were agreed in 99-127r0 and Paul promised a revision.

Bill Ham led a discussion of the wording that defines glitch filters (although
`glitch filters' was not a term agreeable to the whole group).  This was
followed by discussions of other signal characterization issues.

As discussion progressed, Paul produced several additional revisions.  On a
vote of 14:1, the working group recommended that the proposal as modified
(99-127r4) be approved by T10 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.11   "May not" clarifications in SPI-3 (98-246r1) [Elliott]

Rob Elliott identified a few occurrences of `may not' in SPI-3 and requested
wording changes.  The group discussed whether the replacement wording should
be `shall not' or `should not', and eventually agreed with Rob's solution.
Minor changes were requested in the proposal text.  In the absence of any
objections, the group unanimously recommended the 98-246r1 be approved by T10
for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.12   Clarification of interaction of SDTR/WDTR message with PPR message
(99-108r2) [Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer proposed that the PPR message be mandatory in SPI-3.  Wording
changes were recommended and accepted.  Details of the interactions were
discussed.  In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously
recommended the proposal as modified (99-108r3) be approved by T10 for
inclusion in SPI-3.

4.13   Packetized CRC Proposal Merger (99-118, -124) [McGrath/Leshay]

Bruce Leshay agreed to withdraw his proposal in favor of 99-139.

4.14   Protection for the Asynchronous Information phases (99-119r1)
[McGrath/Evans/Elliott]

Mark Evans presented a brief overview of the proposal to add additional error
detection to the non-data phases and Rob Elliott presented a justification for
the proposal.  George Penokie debated the proposition that proposal provides
minimum additional protection on the CDB, one of the largest structures
proposed for error protection.  The history of similar proposals was reviewed.
Attempts were made to justify the need for this particular protection method
based on customer demands and the probability of undetected errors.  But,
others described the probabilities of an undetected error using only today's
parity as being so low as to be not worth the effort.  Several others
described long hours of testing wherein the postulated problems were never
observed.

Mark Evans presented the proposal in detail, which involved use of the high
eight bits on a wide bus (wide buses are now required for DT transfers).  A
cyclic binary BCH error code with a Hamming distance of 4 was selected.  A
2-bit sequence counter is employed to detect double clocks and missing clocks.
Questions were asked about how the mechanism is negotiated and Mark responded
that the PPR message would be used.  Other details of the negotiation
mechanism were discussed and some missing information was identified in the
proposal.

George Penokie conducted a straw poll on the question, "Should the group give
further consideration to the proposal?"  The vote was 5:7:5.  It was noted
that data supporting the need for this error detection mechanism would have a
positive influence on future support for the proposal.

4.15   Setup and hold time measurements for Ultra 160/m (99-131)
[Abou-Jeyah/Bastiani]

The group agreed to defer action on this topic to the next meeting.

4.16   Removing zero length data transfers with CRC (99-132) [Galloway]

Bill Galloway described a condition where DT transfers permit a data group of
0 length with only a CRC field.  He then presented a proposal to prohibit this
situation, requiring some nonzero amount of data transfer whenever a data
phase is entered.  Jeff Williams noted that he previously opposed the change,
but now agrees with it.  In the absence of any objections, the working group

unanimously recommended that 99-132r0 be approved by T10 for inclusion in
SPI-3.

4.17   Timing for SCSI RST line (99-133) [Galloway]

Bill Galloway described a problem where devices have been observed resetting
due to crosstalk on the reset line and proposed changes to the standard that
effectively requires a 200ns glitch filter on the reset line.  Bruce Leshay
noted that 800ns would be the largest time allowed by other specified
behaviors.  In the absence of any objections, the working group unanimously
recommended that 99-133r0 be approved by T10 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.18   PPR Protocol option negotiation (99-134) [Galloway]

Bill Galloway presented a concern the currently specified protocol negotiation
mechanism is all or nothing.  Either the requested transfer mode is accepted
or the protocol falls back to asynchronous, narrow transfer mode.  He proposed
bit encoding the transfer mode as a solution and noted that responses could be
the requested bit encoding with unsupported bits cleared, which comes closer
to the negotiation scheme used in the Synchronous Data Transfer Request
message.

George Penokie pointed out that the key change in the proposal is not the bit
encoding of the transfer mode, the key change is allowing the PPR recipient to
change the transfer mode to something other than asynchronous in the event of
a mismatch between the request the capabilities.  The group discussed whether
the proposal correctly represents negotiation to least common denominator
mechanism familiar to SCSI developers.

It was noted that the proposal fails to clearly state that bits can only be
turned off in a response, not turned on.

Bill agreed to revise the proposal based on the group's comments.  In the
absence of any objections, the group unanimously recommended that the revised
proposal (99-134r1) be approved by T10 for inclusion in SPI-3.

4.19   Patent Letter for SPI-3 from Adaptec (99-138) [Lamers]

John Lohmeyer reported the receipt of a patent statement letter from Adaptec.
It does not identify specific patent(s).  Gene Milligan noted that the letter
needs to be sent to NCITS with the public review draft of SPI-3.

4.20   Packet Protocol Extensions (99-139, 99-151) [Milligan/Penokie/Lamers]

Larry Lamers reviewed reported objections to proposed changes to the
packetized protocol that would eliminate the known-length feature of the
packetized protocol.  He discussed the interests of those proposing the
changes, specifically desires to stream multiple data packets to get
appropriate CRC coverage.  Then he presented a proposal that responds to these
concerns by added a CRC Interval value to the packetized protocol definition.

Odd byte count transfers generated discussions of several topics including
changing the meaning of the data length field.  Concerns also were raised
about changing the length of a L_Q information unit.  It was agreed to change
all counts to byte counts, and to have the data length reflect the actual byte
count not including the pad bytes.

The discussion turned to the streaming part of the proposal.  Strong sentiment
was expressed against read streaming.  Write streaming was generally agreed to
save bus overhead time.  In response to a request from George Penokie, the
group voted 6:3 in a straw poll to recommend removal of read streaming from
the proposal.  The proposal authors took note of the straw poll.

Larry agreed to bring a revised proposal to the next working group meeting.

4.21   A Common CRC Method for Packetized and Legacy Devices (99-141) [Lamers]

Larry asked that discussion of this topic be deferred to the next meeting.

4.22   Review of SPI-3 working draft [Penokie]

The group agreed to defer a SPI-3 review to the next meeting.

Chair's note:  George Penokie was able to begin the review process after the
SCSI working group meeting, which ended earlier than expected.

4.23   Slower DT Timing Values (99-155r0) [Milligan]

Following up on Paul Aloisi's presentation (see 4.10), Gene Milligan presented

issues concerning the timing diagram, with particular focus on the parts of
the transition time that are not shown in the diagram.  Gene closed by noting
that the presentation was informational and not directed toward making changes
in SPI-3.

4.24   DT CRC Description (99-157r0) [Leshay]

Bruce Leshay proposed changes to the description of the P_CRCA and the
relationship of the signal to REQ.  Bruce stated a belief that the changes
were editorial in nature, but sought the group's opinion.  Gene Milligan
indicated his belief that the change is a significant technical change, but
also that he agreed with making the change.  Bruce accepted corrections to the
proposal.  In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously recommended
that the revised proposal (99-157r1) be approved by T10 for inclusion in
SPI-3.

5.     SPI-4 Topics

5.1    Project Proposal for SPI-4 (Ultra320 SCSI) (99-140) [Lamers]

Larry presented a draft project proposal for SPI-4.  The list of items that
might be included in SPI-4 was discussed and Larry agreed to accept comments
on the list for a revision of the proposal to be prepared for consideration at
the May meetings.  Larry agreed to incorporate the return on investment
statement from at T13 project proposal.  Larry agreed to bring a revised draft
to the May meeting.

6.     Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of the SPI-3 Working Group will be Wednesday, April 7, 1999
and Thursday, April 8, 1999 from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. in Monterey, CA (see
the meeting notice in 99-161).

The following meeting of the SPI-3 Working Group will be Monday, May 3, 1999
commencing at 1 p.m. recessing on Monday evening and continuing until 6 p.m.
on Tuesday, May 4, 1999 at the Holiday Inn "The Center of NH" (603-625-1000)
in Manchester, NH hosted by Hitachi Cable Manchester.

7.     Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 10:35 a.m. on Wednesday March 10, 1999.


--
John Lohmeyer                  Email: lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
LSI Logic Corp.                Voice: +1-719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: +1-719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907              BBS: +1-719-533-7950

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