Draft minutes of SPI-3 Working Group - 9/15/98

John Lohmeyer lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Tue Sep 22 08:55:33 PDT 1998

* From the T10 (formerly SCSI) Reflector (t10 at symbios.com), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com>
These minutes are also available in PDF format at:


Accredited Standards Committee*
National Committee for Information Technology Standards (NCITS)

                                               Doc. No.: T10/98-212r0
                                                   Date: September 22, 1998
                                               Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:       T10 Membership
From:     Ralph Weber / John Lohmeyer
Subject:  SPI-3 Working Group Meeting -- September 15, 1998
          St. Petersburg Beach, FL


1.     Opening Remarks
2.     Approval of Agenda
3.     Attendance and Membership
4.     SPI-3 Topics
4.1      CRC Proposal (98-177r5)
4.2      Domain Validation (98-184, -189)
4.3      QAS (97-199r9, 98-133r0, 98-159r2) [Moore, Penokie]
4.4      Parallel Protocol Request Negotiation (98-180r3) [Penokie]
4.5      Fast-80 Proposal (98-153r5) [Milligan]
4.6      SPI-3 Concerns (98-197r0, 98-219r0) [Daggett]
4.7      Staged Contact Resistance (98-174) [Herrmann]
4.8      Load Compensation (97-281) [Novak]
4.9      Universal Backplane Annex (98-101) [Wallace]
4.10     Bias Reduction Proposal (98-156) [Bridgewater]
4.11     InterSymbol Interference (98-199) [Penman]
4.12     Penokie's `forgotten' issues (reflector message)
4.13     `Small' change to single-ended termination current (98-220r0)
4.14     Long Cables and Backplanes [Ham/Penman]
4.15     INQUIRY data field to report transceiver types (98-215r0) [Lohmeyer]
5.     Meeting Schedule
6.     Adjournment

Results of Meeting

1.     Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:10 a.m.,
Tuesday September 15, 1998.  He thanked Chuck Brill of AMP for hosting the

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of the
attendance list was circulated.

2.     Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions and changes:

4.1      CRC Proposal (98-177r5)

The following agenda items were added during the course of the meeting:

4.14     Long Cables and Backplanes [Ham/Penman]
4.15     INQUIRY data field to report transceiver types (98-215r0) [Lohmeyer]

3.     Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum attendance
requirements for T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to any
person or organization directly and materially affected by T10's scope of
work.  The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Martin L. Sodos    O  Advansys                  msodos at advansys.com
Mr. Charles Brill      P  AMP, Inc.                 cebrill at amp.com
Mr. Edward Haske       O  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Robert C. Elliott  P  Compaq Computer Corp.     Robert.Elliott at compaq.com
Dr. William Ham        A  Compaq Computer Corp.     bill.ham at digital.com
Mr. Charles Tashbook   P  Dallas Semiconductor      charles.tashbook at dalsemi.
Mr. Ed Kavetsky        A# Distributed Processing    kavetsky at dpt.com
Mr. Ben-Koon Lin       A  Fujitsu (FCPA)            blin at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Mr. Marcos Barrionuevo P  Harting, Inc. of N.       Marcos.Barrionuevo@
                          America                   harting.com
Mr. Zane Daggett       P  Hitachi Cable Manchester, zdaggett at hcm.hitachi.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.                 gop at us.ibm.com
Mr. Louis Grantham     P  Linfinity Micro           lgrantham at linfinity.com
Mr. Paul Pickle        V  Linfinity Micro           ppickle at linfinity.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  LSI Logic Corp.           lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Alan Littlewood    A  LSI Logic Corp.           alanl at lsil.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A# LSI Logic Corp.           roweber at acm.org
Mr. Andrew Brown       V  LSI Logic Corp.           andrew.brown at lsil.com
Mr. David Steele       V  LSI Logic Corp.           david.steele at lsil.com

Mr. Steve Stefek       V  LSI Logic Corp.           steve.stefek at lsil.com
Mr. Makesh             V  Lucent Technologies       makesh at lucent.com
Mr. Robert Bellino     P  Madison Cable Corp.       rbellino at madisoncable.com
Mr. Jay Neer           A  Molex Inc.                jneer at molex.com
Mr. Martin Ogbuokiri   A# Molex Inc.                mogbuokiri at molex.com
Mr. Chuck Micalizzi    O  QLogic Corp.              c_micalizzi at qlc.com
Mr. Dean Wallace       V  QLogic Corp.              d_wallace at qlc.com
Mr. James McGrath      A# Quantum Corp.             JMCGRATH at QNTM.COM
Mr. Bruce Leshay       V  Quantum Corp.             bleshay at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Richard Uber       V  Quantum Corp.             duber at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
Mr. Daniel (Dan) F.    O  Seagate Technology        daniel_f_smith at notes.
Smith                                               seagate.com
Mr. Mayank R. Patel    V  Seagate Technology        patel at cdg.stsv.seagate.
Mr. Dave Guss          P  Silicon Systems, Inc.     dave.guss at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Henry Kuo          O  Silicon Systems, Inc.     tkuoh at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Frank Ng           V  Sun Microsystems          franklin.ng at sun.com
                          Computer Co
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital           Jeffrey.L.Williams at wdc.
Williams                  Corporation               com

37 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor

4.     SPI-3 Topics

4.1    CRC Proposal (98-177r5)

Jim McGrath introduced 98-177r5 and two new documents (98-217r0 and 98-218r0)
that summarize the remaining issues in the 177r5 document.  The two major
issues are whether 8-bit support should be defined for double transition
clocking and whether support for single-ended should be included in SPI-3.
Minor issues are the usage of the P1 signal and what value should be defined
for the pad bytes.

A straw poll was taken on bus width support for Double Transition clocking:

Vote   Option
20     A1) 32- and 16-bit support only.  8-bit support forbidden.
0      A2) 32- and 16-bit support only.  Document silent on 8-bit support.
3      A3) 32- and 16-bit support recommended. 8-bit support allowed.
4      A4) 32- and 16- and 8-bit support allowed.

John Lohmeyer pointed out that he voted for option 1 with the understanding
that nothing would be done to require the usage of the P1 signal for DT
clocking.  This would allow us to change our minds later should 8-bit support
become desirable.

The discussion turned to single-ended support.  Another straw poll was taken:

Vote   Option
22     A1) LVD only.  Single-ended forbidden.
0      A2) LVD only.  Document silent on single-ended support.
1      A3) LVD recommended and single-ended allowed.
0      A3) LVD and single-ended allowed.

A straw poll on P1 usage in DT mode was taken:

Vote   Option
0      C1) the current wording indicating that P1 is used for 16-bit parity
1      C2) new wording indicating that the signal is reserved for future use
20     C3) signal negated by the driver and ignored by the receiver

The pad byte value was discussed and a straw poll was taken:

Vote   Option
0      D1) pad bytes are 00
16     D2) pad bytes may be anything

The working group unanimously recommended that the plenary approve 98-177r6,
which includes the results of the straw polls, for incorporation into SPI-3.

4.2    Domain Validation (98-184, -189)

Larry Lamers reported on discussions related to DMTF (Desktop Management Task

Force) as they apply to SCSI transfer parameters and modes and domain
validation.  He then reviewed the READ/WRITE BUFFER proposal for domain
validation (98-184r1).  He noted that domain validation can detect some data
integrity problems and miss others.  He noted where the DMTF wording had been
added to the proposal and that margin testing been add to the proposal at the
request of LSI Logic and others.

The CDB fields associated with the margin testing description were not defined
to the satisfaction of all present.  The group discussed the how best to
define the margin testing and adjustment mechanisms.

4.3    QAS (97-199r9, 98-133r0, 98-159r2) [Moore, Penokie]

The group agreed to recommend that the plenary accept QAS for inclusion in the
SPI-3 working draft.

4.4    Parallel Protocol Request Negotiation (98-180r3) [Penokie]

George Penokie led the group in a discussion of 98-180r3.  The group agreed to
make a few changes.  George agreed to bring a revised proposal to the next

4.5    Fast-80 Proposal (98-153r5) [Milligan]

Gene Milligan presented 98-153r5.

The change to delete the note 2 in Table 1 that said, "This is a recommended
time. It is not mandatory." met with some resistance.  George Penokie observed
that many SCSI devices cannot meet even the 10 second recommendation for time
after power on before the device responds to selection.  Gene agreed to
rescind the draft changes in Table 1.

A new definition, Receive Period, was changed to REQ/ACK Period.  After
reviewing all the definitions, Gene asked for responses to the "homework
assignment."  Recommendations for 0.6 ns Transmit Period Tolerance and 0.7 ns
Receive Period Tolerance were accepted with little discussion.

Gene Milligan moved that the working group recommend 98-153r6 (r5 as revised)
be accepted for inclusion in SPI-3.  George Penokie seconded the motion.  The
vote passed, 11:3.  Chuck Micalizzi from Qlogic stated that his no vote was
based an objection to the inclusion of 98-153 in SPI-3 at this time because
several of the definitions have been redefined without a chance to review or
comment on these definitions.

4.6    SPI-3 Concerns (98-197r0, 98-219r0) [Daggett]

Zane Daggett presented a series of specific concerns in the draft SPI-3 text.
The recommendation regarding the use of "Characteristic Impedance" Tables 15
and 16 were accepted and "Transmission Line Impedance" was agreed as
replacement wording.  It was further agreed to use the Fast-40 numbers in
place of the N/A entries in Table 16.

Lastly, Zane noted that a new statement regarding attenuation is called for in
clause 6.2 and that Annex F should be replaced by a completely new testing

Zane then presented an outline for the new testing annex (98-219r0).

4.7    Staged Contact Resistance (98-174) [Herrmann]

At the voice-mail request of Hank Herrman, discussion of this topic was
deferred to the November meeting.

4.8    Load Compensation (97-281) [Novak]

In the absence of Vit Novak, discussion of this topic was deferred to the
November meeting.

4.9    Universal Backplane Annex (98-101) [Wallace]

Since Dean Wallace could not attend, discussion of this topic was deferred to
the November.

4.10   Bias Reduction Proposal (98-156) [Bridgewater]

Since Wally Bridgewater could not attend, discussion of this topic was
deferred to the November meeting.

4.11   InterSymbol Interference (98-199) [Penman]

In the absence of Duncan Penman, discussion of this topic was deferred to the
November meeting.

4.12   Penokie's `forgotten' issues (reflector message)

In going through the minutes of the last three SPI-3 working groups it appears
that a few issues seems to have disappeared without getting a resolution. They

Reducing the stub length from 10 cm to 5 cm or 6 cm except for devices that
contain non-disabled terminators.  It was agreed to not reduce the stub length
at this time.

Restricting, in some way, system configurations that use multi-mode
terminators.  It was agreed to make no changes at this time.

The question of whether pad bytes should be reserved (i.e. zero) or ignored
(i.e. vendor specific).  A vote earlier in the day resulted in the pad bytes
being vendor specific (see 4.1).

4.13   `Small' change to single-ended termination current (98-220r0)

Louis Grantham described an incompatibility between SCSI-2, SPI, and SPI-2
single-ended termination current requirements and proposed a change for SPI-3
(98-220r0).  It was noted that all the terminator companies had agreed to the
previous values.  However, Louis pointed out that a terminator company is
requesting the change and that the change has no effect on drivers.

Louis Grantham moved that the working group recommend that T10 accept 98-220r0
be accepted for inclusion in SPI-3.  Dave Guss seconded the motion.  The
motion passed 10:3:3.  Paul Aloisi stated that his no vote was based on the
previous agreements to the current definition with all the terminator
companies.  The change allows non-linear terminators, which have been a
problem in the past, and leaves no margin for drivers; the terminators take
the maximum current the drivers put out and there is no margin for receiver
leakage current.

Chair's note: T10 reviewed this proposal and deferred consideration until the
November meeting so that the November SPI-3 WG can review it further (see
98-226 and 98-214, item 10.4.3).

4.14   Long Cables and Backplanes [Ham/Penman]

Bill Ham described data presented by Duncan Penman in July as unbelievably
good.  Bill then reported that attempts to reproduce the data presented in
July have been unsuccessful and that the new results have been, in some cases,
even worse than other data Bill has seen.  Bill concluded by noting that LVD
expanders still have a place in the world.

4.15   INQUIRY data field to report transceiver types (98-215r0) [Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer noted that the introduction of translating expanders could
result in differences in driver/receiver mode between the initiator and
target.  This could be of value in domain validation.  As a result, John
produced a proposal to report transceiver information in the standard INQUIRY
data (98-215r0).  Concerns were raised about the usefulness of the proposed
data, in light of other information that should be available to the initiator.
A straw poll favored further consideration of the proposal 11:6.

5.     Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of SPI-3 Working Group will be Tuesday, November 3, 1998 from
9 a.m. to 6 p.m. in Palm Springs, CA hosted by Adaptec, Inc. at the Hyatt
Regency Suites Hotel (619-322-9000).

6.     Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 6:05 p.m. on Tuesday September 15, 1998.

John Lohmeyer                  Email: lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
LSI Logic Corp.                Voice: +1-719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: +1-719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907              BBS: +1-719-533-7950

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