Draft Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting - 3/11-12/97

John Lohmeyer John.Lohmeyer at symbios.com
Tue Mar 18 21:25:03 PST 1997


* From the SCSI Reflector (scsi at symbios.com), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <John.Lohmeyer at Symbios.com>
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Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting in San Diego, CA      T10/97-138r0
                                   7
Accredited Standards Committee*
National Committee for Information Technology Standards (NCITS)

                                                    Doc. No.: T10/97-138r0
                                                        Date: March 18, 1997
                                                     Project:
                                                   Ref. Doc.:
                                                    Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:         Membership of T10

From:       Ralph Weber, Secretary T10
            Larry Lamers, Vice-chair T10
            John Lohmeyer, Chair T10

Subject:    Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting
            San Diego, CA -- March 11-12, 1997


                                  Agenda

1. Opening Remarks

2. Approval of Agenda

3. Attendance and Membership

4. EPI Topics

5. Physical Topics

6. Protocol Topics
   6.1 Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195r1) [Houlder]
   6.2 Command Exception Conditions (95-352r3) [Monia]
   6.3 SIP Message Issues (97-141r0) [Penokie]
   6.4 SAM-2 [Monia]
      6.4.1 Addressing Model for SAM-2 (was REPORT LUNS Issue) (97-122r0)
         [Penokie]

7. Command Set Topics
   7.1 SPC-2
      7.1.1 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-240r1) [Stephens]
      7.1.2 World Wide Names (97-101r2) [Snively]
      7.1.3 Proposed change in Qerr=1 Behavior in SPC-2 (96-277r1) [Weber]
      7.1.4 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]
      7.1.5 Additional Device Types for ASC/ASCQ (97-140r0) [Penokie]
      7.1.6 RESERVE/RELEASE Issues (97-142r0) [Penokie]

8. Other Topics
   8.1 High-Availability Profile [Hagerman]
   8.2 Project Proposal for SCSI Socket/SSL Services (SSS) (97-129r0) [Parker]
   8.3 Review of T10.1 Proposed Resolution to SSA-PH2, SSA-TL2, and SSA-S3P
      Letter Ballot Comments [Lamers]
   8.4 Higher Performance SCSI [Ham]
   8.5 Logical Unit Response to Transceiver Mode Changes (96-270r2) [Penokie]
   8.6 SCAM Removal [Milligan]

9. Meeting Schedule

10. Adjournment



                              Results of Meeting

1.    Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m.,
Tuesday March 11, 1997.  He thanked Skip Jones of QLogic for hosting and
arranging the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of the
attendance list was circulated.  Copies of the draft agenda and general
information on T10 were made available to those attending.

2.    Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions:

      8.4 High Performance SCSI [Ham]
      8.5 Logical Unit Response to Transceiver Mode Changes (96-270r2)
      [Penokie]
      8.6 SCAM Removal [Milligan]

3.    Attendance and Membership

John reminded the group that attendance at working group meetings does not
count toward minimum attendance requirements for T10 membership.  He noted
that working group meetings are open to any person or organization directly
and materially affected by T10's scope of work.

The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers A  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at aol.com
Mr. Charles Brill      P  AMP, Inc.                 cebrill at amp.com
Mr. Bob Atkinson       O  AMP, Inc.                 rdatkins at amp.com
Ms. Bonnie Rose        V  Amphenol                  brose at cosmosgroup.com
Mr. Bob Gannon         O  C&M Corp.                 bobg848740 at aol.com
Mr. Richard Wagner     P  Cable Design Technologies rwagner at montrose-cdt.com
Mr. Edward Haske       P  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Roger Wang         O  CMD Technology
Mr. Peter Johansson    P  Congruent Software, Inc.  pjohansson at aol.com
Mr. Greg McSorley      P  Data General / Clariion   greg_mcsorley at dgc.ceo.dg.
                                                    com
Mr. Charles Monia      P  Digital Equipment Corp.   charles.monia at shr.mts.dec
                                                    .com
Dr. William Ham        A# Digital Equipment Corp.   ham at subsys.enet.dec.com
Mr. Douglas Hagerman   A# Digital Equipment Corp.   hagerman at starch.enet.dec.
                                                    com
Mr. Keith W. Parker    V  Diogenes-SCSI             diogenes at europa.com
Ms. Constance Kephart  P  Exabyte Corp.             conniek at exabyte.com
Mr. Mark Hammang       V  Fujitsu (Intellistor)     hammang at intellistor.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.                 gop at rchvmp3.vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dan Colegrove      A# IBM Corp.                 colegrove at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. John P. Scheible   A  IBM Corp.                 Scheible at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at netcom.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          gardner at acm.org
Mr. Dan Davies         O  Overland Data Inc.        ddavies at ovrland.com
Mr. Skip Jones         P  QLogic Corp.              sk_jones at qlc.com
Mr. James McGrath      P  Quantum Corp.             JMCGRATH at QNTM.COM
Mr. Mark Evans         A  Quantum Corp.             mevans at qntm.com
Mr. John A. Fobel      O  Rancho Technology, Inc.   johnf at rancho.com
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Dave Guss          P  Silicon Systems, Inc.     dave.guss at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp.  erich_oetting at stortek.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems Computer bob.snively at eng.sun.com
                          Co
Mr. Vit Novak          A  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    vit.novak at sun.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  Symbios Logic Inc.        john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A  Symbios Logic Inc.        roweber at acm.org
Mr. Rod DeKoning       A# Symbios Logic Inc.        rod.dekoning at symbios.com
Mr. Brian McKean       A  SyQuest Technology, Inc.  brian.mckean at syquest.com
Mr. Arlan P. Stone     A  UNISYS Corporation        arlan.stone at mv.unisys.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Gregory Kapraun    V  Western Digital Corp.     kapraun at wdroc.wdc.com
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital           jwilliam at wdroc.wdc.com
Williams                  Corporation
Mr. Arnold Limjoco     O  Yamaichi Electronics      arnold.l at yeu.com

41 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor
 
4.    EPI Topics

Bill Ham described the work completed thus far by reviewing the table of
contents of revision 8.  He also reviewed the rules for SCSI domains including
the addition of a sixth rule on REQ/ACK offset counters.  The group identified
a need to add a clause describing smart expanders. The current draft assumes
only dumb expanders.  The group discussed the need to add a clause on counting
and latching; Vit Novak accepted the task of writing this clause.

Bill reviewed the clause on adding and removal of segments.  Only a segment
with one expander can be added or removed at a time.

Bill stated that the next frontier is LUN-Bridges, which should allow some 450
targets to be attached to an initiator. Some work was done on labels and
terminology; in particular, the group agreed to bifurcate `expanders' into
`simple expanders' and `bridging expanders'.  Simple expanders do not have (or
need) a SCSI ID, while bridging expanders occupy one or more SCSI IDs. Bill
stated his plans to reflect the changes discussed by the group in the next
revision.

5.    Physical Topics

Aside from agenda topics 8.4 and 8.5, no issues concerning physical interfaces
were brought before the group.

6.    Protocol Topics

6.1   Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195r1) [Houlder]

Gerry Houlder presented the proposal, as revised based on input from the last
working group meeting.  There was concern that having the same page code for
all interfaces may cause confusion.  It is also anticipated that a device
might support multiple protocols.  However, there are a limited number of page
codes left for all devices.

There was a concern regarding the requirement for having the information in
flash memory for storage.

Gerry agreed to modify the proposal to remove the flash memory requirement and
make the page code specific to Fibre Channel.  Later in the meeting, Gerry
presented the revised proposal to the group.

While discussing the revised proposal, concerns were expressed regarding the
relationship to the power on condition described in one paragraph of the
proposal.  As a result of these concerns, the paragraph was removed. Charles
Monia expressed concern about use of a mode page to control a link-layer
function.  He noted the difficulties this approach causes for layered software
constructs.

The group recommended that the plenary approve the revised proposal (96-195r4,
the second draft proposal presented by Gerry, as further revised by the
working group) on a vote of 13:2.  Describing their votes against recommending
the proposal, Peter Johansson and Charles Monia stated their belief that the
matter should be resolved in the Fibre Channel link layer.  Attempts were made
to address the objections, but no technically feasible resolution could be
found.

6.2   Command Exception Conditions (95-352r3) [Monia]

Charles Monia reviewed the previous discussions regarding command exception
conditions handling (97-151r0).  The group discussed the arguments and
counter-
arguments that Charles presented.  Charles presented several options for
reaching closure regarding the original proposal and the group discussed the
options.  Charles accepted the group consensus that he undertake the option
recommending research in to the market need for resolution of the command
exception issues raised in his original proposal.  If a market need is
identified, then a proposal representing the market needs will be brought to
the group.  Otherwise, the issue will be closed.

6.3   SIP Message Issues (97-141r0) [Penokie]

George Penokie presented three issues concerning SCSI-3 parallel bus message
handling.  His general description of the issues was that they involve wording
oversights in SIP or needs for clarifications of text in SIP (SCSI-3
Interlocked Protocol).

The Clear ACA proposal generated some controversy.  The proposal would require
the device server to process a command in the same transaction.  Bob Snively
reported that FCP requires separate packets for the Clear ACA and the command.
The software impacts of the proposal were discussed and the group concluded
that the software impacts are negligible and can be confined to the link-layer
software.  The group accepted the Clear ACA proposal as written.

The proposal to bring the SCSI-2 wording relating disconnect privilege and
queued tasks in to SCSI-3 also generated some discussion.  Jim McGrath was
concerned that the proposed SCSI-3 wording was unclear.  Jeff Williams
expressed concern over the definition of conditions where the proposal
required the prohibition of disconnects when doing a disconnect might cause a
lockup.  George accepted changes in the proposal's wording.

Grammatical changes were made to the last part of the proposal dealing with
message out.

Later in the meeting, George presented the revised wording for the disconnect
privilege.  The group asked that the sentence be restructured for better
readability.  In the absence of any objections, the group recommended that the
plenary approve 97-141r2 (r1 as revised) for inclusion in SPI-2.

6.4   SAM-2 [Monia]

6.4.1 Addressing Model for SAM-2 (was REPORT LUNS Issue) (97-122r0) [Penokie]

George Penokie presented a proposal that the SCC LUN structure wording be
incorporated in SAM-2.  He described the proposed wording as being basically
the wording now found in SCC, but with changes that make it more general and
make it better fit the current SAM wording.  George reviewed the proposal in
detail.  Gene Milligan requested that the wording be revised to clarify how
someone developing firmware for a disk should implement the proposed logical
unit numbering structure.  George agreed to revise the proposal based on
comments from the working group and to present the revised proposal at the
next general working group meeting.

Later in the meeting, the group discussed the need for non-hierarchical LUN
numbering in some devices.  George was concerned that leaving an opening for
non-hierarchical LUNs might resurrect the problems that resulted in the
original draft of his proposal.  Bob Snively discussed these issues with
George, and a few other group members provided supplementary ideas to the
discussion.  George took the input from the group for application on his next
draft proposal.

7.    Command Set Topics

7.1   SPC-2

7.1.1 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-240r1) [Stephens]

The group agreed to drop this item from future agendas.  It was agreed that,
if the concept introduced by Gary Stephens is needed, it can be added to the
mode page defined by Gerry Houlder in his proposal (see 6.1 above). If the
issue needs further attention, a new agenda item will be introduced.

7.1.2 World Wide Names (97-101r2) [Snively]

Bob Snively noted that the one significant change appears on page 10 and
concerns the usage of globally unique identifiers by RAID controllers.  The
group located a typo in the revised document and Bob agreed to revise the
document to correct the problem.  In the absence of any objections, the group
recommended that the plenary send revision 3 to IEEE.

7.1.3 Proposed change in Qerr=1 Behavior in SPC-2 (96-277r1) [Weber]

Ralph Weber presented a revised proposal that included the changes requested
by the previous working group meeting.  Almost immediately, the proposal was
divided in two parts: the proposed wording changes for SPC-2 and the proposed
changes to the requirements in the previously approved Basic Queuing proposal
(96-198r4).  In the proposed SPC-2 changes, there was no objection to adding
the QErr=11b definition, but some group members wanted the proposed note
revised or removed.

The discussion of the proposed amendment to the Basic Queuing proposal was
long, convoluted, and covered a wide variety of opinions.  The group
eventually agreed that the Basic Queuing description should be amended to not
specify any one QErr behavior.  Ralph agreed to revise the proposed amendment
to 96-198r4 with wording that was agreeable to the group.

For the purposes of straw polling, the proposal was split in three parts: the
new QErr-11b definition, the note (as revised by the group), and the Basic
Queuing amendment (as revised by the group).  The group favored the new QErr=1
definition 15:0.  The group opposed the note 5:10.  The group favored the
revised Basic Queuing amendment 15:1.  Ralph agreed to prepare a revised
proposal based on the input from the group for consideration by the plenary.

7.1.4 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]

The group deferred action on this topic to the May 1997 meeting.

7.1.5 Additional Device Types for ASC/ASCQ (97-140r0) [Penokie]

George presented a proposal for changes that allow several ASC/ASCQs to be
applied to additional device types, not just array type devices. In the
absence of any objections, the group recommended that the plenary accept the
proposal for inclusion in SPC-2.

7.1.6 RESERVE/RELEASE Issues (97-142r0) [Penokie]

George presented a proposal describing several minor clarifications for the
Reserve and Release commands.  The group noted a few grammatical corrections
for the proposal.  Whether the changes should be applied to SPC or SPC-2 was
discussed.  It was noted that SPC recently completed second public review.
The group agreed that the incorrect section references and the wording "extent
list length" should be corrected in SPC, but the other changes should be
incorporated in SPC-2.  In the absence of any objections, the group
recommended that the plenary accept the proposal, as revised, for inclusion in
SPC-2 and that, with plenary approval, the technical editor make the changes
discussed as non-substantive in SPC.

8.    Other Topics

8.1   High-Availability Profile [Hagerman]

Doug noted that a new draft of the High-Availability Profile (HAP) technical
report was not available yet.  However, Doug had several questions on which he
wanted working group advice.  One topic was the name for the entity that
contains a device server, i.e., if a host contains an application client, then
a blank contains a device server.  Doug noted that the editorial meeting
suggested "appliance" to fill in the blank.  The group offered no better
suggestions. Doug described several other terms and the definitions for them
as found in the draft HAP document.

8.2   Project Proposal for SCSI Socket/SSL Services (SSS) (97-129r0) [Parker]

Keith Parker presented a draft project proposal for a standard that maps
Windows socket services to SCSI commands.  The group discussed the proposal at
length.  The group sought a substantial amount of background information and
tutorial description of the ideas that form the basis of the proposal.

The group discussed the methodology for acting on the project proposal.  John
noted that he has revised the proposal to match the normal project proposal
wording used by T10.  The group discussed the liaisons to be named by the
project proposal, and John collected a list of liaisons.

The group recommended that the plenary forward revised project proposal to
NCITS for processing as a proposal for a new project, on a vote of 7:1.  Gene
Milligan expressed concern about the readiness of the project proposal for
forwarding, i.e., several terms such as http and sockets need definitions.
Keith agreed to provide definitions before the project proposal was presented
to the plenary.

John proposed that a revised proposal be constructed including the changes
made by the group, the definitions requested by Gene, and the list of
liaisons.  Based on the working group vote, John proposed that the revised
draft project proposal be presented to the plenary.

8.3   Review of T10.1 Proposed Resolution to SSA-PH2, SSA-TL2, and SSA-S3P
      Letter Ballot Comments [Lamers]

John Lohmeyer described the history of comments resolutions for the second
generation of SSA documents.  Issues concerning additional information
published on a world wide web site were discussed.  Comparison were made to
information in SPC annexes that have additional data published on the T10
world wide web site.  The group agreed to changes in the documents proposed by
T10.1 as a result of the letter ballot comments.

8.4   Higher Performance SCSI [Ham]

Bill Ham presented several ideas for improving parallel SCSI bus performance.
The group discussed potential future developments in SCSI and market reaction
to past SCSI improvements.  The group discussed setting aside time for a
special ad hoc to discuss future changes in SCSI.  Keeping a recurring agenda
item in the working group also was discussed and was accepted as the approach
that the group will use.  The timing of the meeting and possible coordination
with the STA technical meeting were discussed.  Thursday morning was suggested
for STA technical meeting slot for future meeting weeks.  After a lengthy
discussion, the group agreed to keep its own recurring agenda item on Tuesday
afternoons.

Jim McGrath also provided the committee with 97-150r0, describing his
perspective on higher performance parallel SCSI busses.  Jim's conclusions
were that increasing device addressibility is the primary goal, increasing
transfer performance is secondary, and lowering overhead has only a tertiary
effect.  Doug Hagerman opposed focusing only on addressibility.  Several
others also questioned Jim's conclusions.  The group agreed to continue
discussion of this type in future meetings.

8.5   Logical Unit Response to Transceiver Mode Changes (96-270r2) [Penokie]

George reviewed the proposal to require a reset event and unit attention
conditions to notify application clients of changes to and from LVD
transceiver mode.  Charles Monia questioned the need for adding wording to
SAM-
2, on the grounds that the reset event already is listed as a cause of a unit
attention condition.  George removed the SAM changes from the proposal.  Gene
Milligan questioned whether a bus can go from non-LVD to LVD mode.  The group
felt that it is possible to go from non-LVD to LVD mode.

In the absence of any objections, the group recommended that the plenary
approve 96-270r2 (which includes the revisions George made at the SPI-2
working group and at this meeting) for inclusion in SPI-2 and SPC-2, as noted
in the proposal.

8.6   SCAM Removal [Milligan]

Gene Milligan expressed the concern that SCAM is implemented only in drives
but not in host software.  He felt that the SCAM firmware in disks is
substantially untested, due to the lack of host software.  Gene also expressed
concerns about how SCAM might adversely affect future plans for Ultra3 SCSI.
In light of these concerns, Gene proposed that SCAM be removed from all T10
standards and technical reports subsequent to SPI and the SPI Amendment.  The
group discussed the pros and cons of Gene's proposal at length.  Examples of
host software that implements SCAM were presented.  No clear conclusions were
reached.

9.    Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of SCSI Working Group will be May 6-7, 1997, in Natick, MA at
the Crowne Plaza Hotel (508-653-8800), hosted by Digital Equipment Corp.

10.   Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 5:14 p.m. on Wednesday March 12, 1997.


--
John Lohmeyer                 E-Mail: john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Symbios Logic Inc.             Voice: 719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: 719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907-3444    SCSI BBS: 719-533-7950 300--28800 baud

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