Draft Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting 1/7-8/97

Lohmeyer, John JLOHMEYE at cossymwest.co.symbios.com
Tue Jan 14 16:53:00 PST 1997

* From the SCSI Reflector (scsi at symbios.com), posted by:

Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting in Palm Springs, CA X3T10/96-258r0
Accredited Standards Committee*
X3, Information Technology
                                             Doc. No.: X3T10/97-111r0
                                                 Date: January 14, 1997
                                            Ref. Doc.:
                                             Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:         Membership of X3T10

From:       Ralph Weber, Secretary X3T10
            Larry Lamers, Vice-chair X3T10
            John Lohmeyer, Chair X3T10

Subject:    Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting
            Dallas, TX -- January 7-8, 1997


1. Opening Remarks

2. Approval of Agenda

3. Attendance and Membership

4. EPI Topics

5. Physical Topics
   5.1 SPI Amendment (Project 0855-D A1) [Lamers/Lohmeyer]

6. Protocol Topics
   6.1 Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195) [Houlder]
   6.2 Command Exception Conditions (95-352r3) [Monia]

7. Command Set Topics
   7.1 SES Review and Recommendation re LB comments [Snively]
   7.2 SPC-2
      7.2.1 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-240r1) [Stephens]
      7.2.2 REPORT LUNs Command Issue (reflector messages) [Weber]
      7.2.3 World Wide Names (97-101r1 and X3T11/96-467r1) [Snively]
      7.2.4 Proposed change in Qerr=1 Behavior in SPC-2 (96-274) [Weber]
      7.2.5 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]
   7.3 Resolution of SBC letter ballot comments [Milligan]
   7.4 SAM-2 [Monia]
   7.5 Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)   
   7.6 Proposal to add a new modifier to SCSI Write commands (97-127)

8. Other Topics
   8.1 High-Availability Profile [Hagerman]
   8.2 Reconsideration of SCSI-2 based on the ISO corrigendum [Milligan]

9. Meeting Schedule

10. Adjournment

                              Results of Meeting

1.    Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the X3T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m.,
Tuesday January 7, 1997.  He thanked Jim McGrath and Mary Turco of   
Quantum for
hosting and arranging the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of   
attendance list was circulated.  Copies of the draft agenda and general
information on X3T10 were made available to those attending.

2.    Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions:

      7.2.5 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]

3.    Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum   
requirements for X3T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to   
person or organization directly and materially affected by X3T10's scope   

The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail   
 ---------------------- -- -------------------------   
Mr. Norm Harris        P  Adaptec, Inc.   
            nharris at eng.adaptec.com
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers A  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at aol.com
Ms. Lisa Huff          V  AMP, Inc.                 lisa.huff at amp.com
Mr. Edward Haske       P  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Charles Monia      P  Digital Equipment Corp.   monia at shr.dec.com
Mr. Douglas Hagerman   A# Digital Equipment Corp.   
  hagerman at starch.enet.dec.
Dr. William Ham        A# Digital Equipment Corp.   
  ham at subsys.enet.dec.com
Mr. Tom Coughlan       V  Digital Equipment Corp.   
  tom.coughlan at zko.mts.dec.
Mr. Roger Cummings     P  Distributed Processing   
   cummings_roger at dpt.com
Mr. Edward Lappin      P  Exabyte Corp.             tedl at exabyte.com
Mr. Anthony Yang       O  Hitachi America Ltd.   
     yang_a at halsp.hitachi.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.   
                gop at rchvmp3.vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dan Colegrove      A# IBM Corp.   
                colegrove at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Robert Basham      O  IBM Corp.                 robbyb at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at netcom.com
Mr. Dean Wallace       P  Linfinity Micro   
          75671.3443 at compuserve.com
Mr. Pete McLean        P  Maxtor Corp.   
             pete_mclean at maxtor.com
Mr. Jay Neer           A  Molex Inc.                jneer at molex.com
Mr. E. Jake Berzon     P  NEC Electronics, Inc.   
    jberzon at asic.mtv.nec.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          gardner at acm.org
Mr. Skip Jones         P  QLogic Corp.              sk_jones at qlc.com
Mr. James McGrath      P  Quantum Corp.             JMCGRATH at QNTM.COM
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp.   
 erich_oetting at stortek.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems Computer   
bob.snively at eng.sun.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  Symbios Logic Inc.   
       john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Mr. Rod DeKoning       A# Symbios Logic Inc.   
       rod.dekoning at symbios.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A  Symbios Logic Inc.        roweber at acm.org
Mr. Arlan P. Stone     A  UNISYS Corporation   
       arlan.stone at mv.unisys.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Gregory Kapraun    V  Western Digital Corp.     kapraun at wdroc.wdc.com
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital   
          jwilliam at wdroc.wdc.com
Williams                  Corporation

33 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor

4.    EPI Topics

Bill Ham presented a revised table on configurations and length limits.   
noted that there is very little data available on high-voltage   
The table on LVD is not completed yet.

Bill announced that EPI revision 8 will be in the next committee mailing.

The group discussed several concepts to be included in EPI.  The fifth   
rule of
domains was stated: No loops will be allowed.  If a loop is formed, a   
may occur.

A simple expander is limited to a maximum of 20 mega-transfers per   
Bill described his ideas for next generation expanders, in particular
expanders that support 40 mega-transfers per second.  He said that he   
continue to use "expander" as the term for non-intelligent devices but   
use a different term for intelligent devices.

Bill described "SCSI Bridges".  He noted that a SCSI Bridge will occupy a   
ID position on all sides.   He stated the belief that SCSI Bridge should   
capable of being implemented in a single chip.  A SCSI Bridge handles   
negotiation on all sides, and takes the initiator role on only one side.
Several other aspects of SCSI Bridges were discussed by the group,   
comparisons to storage arrays, devices that implement SCSI Controller   

Bill noted that he wishes to discuss dynamically adding and removing   
at the next meeting.

5.    Physical Topics

5.1   SPI Amendment (Project 0855-D A1) [Lamers/Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer and Larry Lamers reported that revision 2 of the SPI   
was in the last committee mailing.  Everybody was admonished to review
revision 2.  John stated that a forwarding motion will be taken at the   
meeting this week.

The group digressed into a discussion of SCAM.  The matter of changing   
IDs resulting from SCAM produced an mini-debate between Roger Cummings,   
Lamers, and John Lohmeyer.  John suggested that a mechanism might be   
where the host adapter would provide the operating system with `fixed
identifiers' for SCAM devices; such identifiers would be invariant for   
host adapter regardless of the changes in SCAM-generated bus ID values.   
identifiers probably would need to be rather large as compared to today's   
or 4-bit device identifiers.

George Penokie pointed out that there is one missing additional reference   
clause 7.  Larry noted that the change will result in the creation of   
3 of the SPI Amendment.

6.    Protocol Topics

6.1   Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195) [Houlder]

Gerry Houlder presented 96-195r1, a proposal defining six bits in the
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page to control functions related to the SCSI-3
Fibre Channel Protocol (FCP) and other Fibre Channel standards.  The   
rejected addition of bit definitions in SPC-2 that would force SPC-2 to   
normative references to several additional Fibre Channel standards   

The group considered and rejected the definition of several bits in the
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page as protocol-specific.  The problem with   
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page was that defining sufficient numbers of
protocol-specific bits would require adding to the defined length of the   

As a result, the group strongly recommended defining one mode page code   
protocol-specific use.  Gerry and George Penokie agreed that a   
byte should be defined in a location common to all uses of the newly   
mode page, with the description of the protocol-type byte appearing in   

George Penokie and Roger Cummings discussed details of the bit   
definitions in
Gerry's proposal.  Gerry agreed to work with George, Roger, and Ralph   
Weber to
create revised draft of his proposal for the next working group meeting.

6.2   Command Exception Conditions (95-352r3) [Monia]

Charles Monia reported that no new presentation was available for this

7.    Command Set Topics

7.1   SES Review and Recommendation re LB comments [Snively]

Bob Snively and Ralph Weber reported that an editorial meeting had   
generated a
detailed list of work items to finalize addressing the letter ballot   
to produce SES revision 8a.  They reported their mutual agreement that 8a
addresses the letter ballot comments and is the document that should be   
forward for first public review.  In the absence of any objections, the
working group recommended accepting SES revision 8a as addressing the   
ballot commands and recommended forwarding revision 8a for further   
toward first public review.

7.2   SPC-2

7.2.1 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-240r1) [Stephens]

Gary Stephens was not present.  Gerry Houlder noted that this proposal
concerns issues similar to those raised by his proposal, 96-195.  He   
agreed to
keep the relationship in mind while working of future revisions of his

7.2.2 REPORT LUNs Command Issue (reflector messages) [Weber]

George Penokie described his concern that different protocols format LUN
values differently, e.g., one byte for SIP and two bytes for FCP.  George
proposed that the SCC LUN format be adopted for the REPORT LUNS command,   
by implication for SPC-2 and all of SCSI.  The group discussed the issue.   
conclusion agreed to by all was that the issue concerns SAM-2, not SPC-2.
George said that he may write a proposal for changing SAM-2 to describe   
LUN format as being the format described in SCC.

The other generally agreed conclusion was that a real problem exists for
application clients.  Unless something is done, an application client may   
be able to translate the 8 bytes of a full-width LUN to whatever number   
of LUN
value bits are used by the applicable protocol.  For example, how should   
application client translate an 8-byte LUN to the 6-bit LUN required by
parallel SCSI?

7.2.3 World Wide Names (97-101r1 and X3T11/96-467r1) [Snively]

Bob Snively asked if the group wished to see a second presentation of the
proposal for new FC-PH identifiers based on IEEE company_ids   
The group, having seen the presentation previously, decided to skip a   
of the presentation.

Bob then presented a tutorial for SCSI use of IEEE registered company_id   
101).  Bob noted that the tutorial becomes an IEEE document.  X3T10
participation is limited to developing the tutorial, IEEE holds approval
authority for the tutorial.

Gene Milligan asked about how the tutorial will be used by IEEE and how   
use will appear to people who request new IEEE company_id values.   
other questions caused the group to digress to unrelated topics such as   
IEEE 1394 and SBP use the IEEE unique ID values that Peter Johansson   
|from IEEE last year.

In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that   
offer 97-101r1 to IEEE as the recommended tutorial for SCSI usage of IEEE
company_id values.

7.2.4 Proposed change in Qerr=1 Behavior in SPC-2 (96-274) [Weber]

The group discussed Ralph Weber's proposal.  The notion of redefining the
behavior of a long-time defined bit was abhorrent to the working group   
Ralph accepted the group's reasoning.  George Penokie, Jeff Williams, Tom
Coughlan, and Rod DeKoning provided several valuable suggestions.  Ralph
agreed to revise the proposal based on the best ideas discussed during   
meeting.  Ralph will bring a revised proposal to the next working group

7.2.5 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]

Robert Basham described a problem where, after some types of failures,   
PREVENT ALLOW MEDIUM REMOVAL command leaves the operator permanently   
unable to
remove the medium.  He sketched out a revision of his proposal that adds   
function modifier bits to the command.  The group provided Robert with
important feedback regarding the proposal.  Robert agreed to provide a   
proposal on the SCSI Reflector for further consideration at the May   
(he will be unavailable in March).

7.3   Resolution of SBC letter ballot comments [Milligan]

Gene Milligan reported that one negative vote (and several comments) were
received in the letter ballot voting to forward SBC to first public   
Gene then reviewed the comments resolution for the SBC forwarding letter

As part of the discussion of the Flexible Disk Geometry mode page, it was
suggested that the page be made obsolete.  However, the group ultimately
agreed to give Digital time to consider how best to handle the page, in   
of claims of extensive use in Digital software products.

In response to a letter ballot comment from Western Digital, the group   
to add the READ DEFECT DATA(12) command, described in the optical   
section, to
the direct access block command set as an optional command.

In the absence of any objections, the working group agreed to accept the
comment resolutions discussed by the working group (96-123) as resolving   
letter ballot comments on SBC and agreed with Gene's plan for resolving   
Flexible Disk Geometry mode page, provided Gene would produce the wording   
the plenary motion.

7.4   SAM-2 [Monia]

Charles Monia stated that no noteworthy information could be reported for   

7.5   Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)   

Giles Frazier presented his concerns with detecting support for commands   
were mandatory in SCSI-2 and have been made optional in SCSI-3.  His
particular concern revolved around testing for support for the   
command.  He noted that issuing a RESERVE(10) to test for support for
RESERVE(10) has the undesirable effect of rendering the logical unit
dysfunctional for other initiators.  Jeff Williams pointed out that one   
use the RELEASE(10) command as a test for support for the RESERVE(10).   
questioned the certainty of such a test.  The group assured him that,   
the standards do not contain requirements making the relationship   
certain, the
practical circumstances assure that his needs will be met.

7.6   Proposal to add a new modifier to SCSI Write commands (97-127)

Tom Coughlan presented a review of his proposal to add a function   
bit to the WRITE command and its reception to date.  George Penokie   
a very strong IBM objection to adding an bits that modify the operation   
of the
WRITE command.  Since Tom prefaced his remaining remarks with a statement   
the proposal will be withdrawn based on the continued support for the   
LONG and WRITE LONG commands, the discussion was brief and cordial.

8.    Other Topics

8.1   High-Availability Profile [Hagerman]

Doug Hagerman distributed revision 3 of X3T10/1224-DT.  At the request of   
Milligan, the group discussed the goals of the project: what are the   
are the goals addressed by the document as written?; should goals be   
or removed from the project?  Bob Snively questioned why he should   
the information that his company considers to be a key value-added   
element of
its product toward the task of writing the high-availability profile.   
 After a
lengthy discussion, the group turned to John Lohmeyer for advice.  John   
a belief that a Technical Report need not describe all possible ways of
achieving an end; it is not a standard.  He based his statement on the   
facts: 1) approval of a Technical Report does not require a consensus of   
committee members; and 2) voting for approval of a Technical Report does   
commit organizations to implementing its contents.  Other   
solutions are allowed.  After listening to John's analysis, the group   
to continue working on the HAP document.

The group discussed many technical concerns with the draft Technical   
Terms needing definition and their relationship to existing SCSI terms   
discussed.  The group suggested that the Technical Report use   
worded definitions whenever a need is identified, as opposed to relying   
supposedly well known existing definitions.  Specific requirements   
included in
the technical description (such as use of the SCA-2 connector, or lack   
of, and how mode page data is managed by a target) were discussed.

8.2   Reconsideration of SCSI-2 based on the ISO corrigendum [Milligan]

Larry Lamers and Gene Milligan reviewed progress on developing a   
version of SCSI-2 based on the errors reported via ISO.  Larry stated a   
that the Japanese were to be asked if they want a corrigendum.  Gene   
the opinion that, if X3T10 wants to make changes based on the ISO   
then we should act without requesting input from the authors of the ISO

There was general agreement with Larry's proposal that the ISO version of   
2 be amended and that we pursue having the amended ISO SCSI-2 be adopted   
the American version of SCSI-2.  Larry accepted Gene's reasoning with   
to the question of whether the Japanese need to be consulted before X3T10

9.    Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of SCSI Working Group will be March 11-12, 1997, in San
Diego, CA at the Hyatt Islandia Hotel (619-224-1234), hosted by QLogic.

10.   Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 5:03 p.m. on Wednesday January 8, 1996.

John Lohmeyer                 E-Mail: john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Symbios Logic Inc.             Voice: 719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: 719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907-3444    SCSI BBS: 719-533-7950 300--14400 baud

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