Minutes of SCSI Working Group -- Sept 10-11, 1996

Lohmeyer, John JLOHMEYE at cossymwest.co.symbios.com
Tue Sep 17 12:19:00 PDT 1996


* From the SCSI Reflector (scsi at symbios.com), posted by:
* "Lohmeyer, John" <JLOHMEYE at COSSYMWEST.CO.SYMBIOS.COM>
*

Minutes of X3T10 SCSI Working Group Meeting in Natick, MA  X3T10/96-234r0

Accredited Standards Committee*
X3, Information Technology
                                             Doc. No.: X3T10/96-234r0
                                                 Date: September 17, 1996
                                              Project:
                                            Ref. Doc.:
                                             Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:         Membership of X3T10

From:       Ralph Weber, Secretary X3T10
            Larry Lamers, Vice-chair X3T10
            John Lohmeyer, Chair X3T10

Subject:    Minutes of X3T10 SCSI Working Group Meeting
            Natick, MA -- September 10-11, 1996


                                  Agenda

1. Opening Remarks

2. Approval of Agenda

3. Attendance and Membership

4. Physical Topics
   4.1 Review of SPI Amendment (SPI Amnd) Letter Ballot Comments
      [Lamers/Johansson]
   4.2 Arbitration Fairness (96-172) [Lohmeyer]
   4.3 Document Strategy
   4.4 Missing SPI Requirement (reflector message) [Milligan]

5. Protocol Topics
   5.1 Problem with Non-interlocked Busses (96-173r0) [Monia]
   5.2 New Task Management Models for SAM (96-198r2) [Johansson]
   5.3 SAM-2 Changes & Layered Architecture (96-191r0) [Monia] {Tuesday   
5:30
      pm}
   5.4 Add Mode Page for fibre channel features (96-195) [Houlder]   
{November
      `96}
   5.5 Tape Support on FC-AL (Reflector Messages) [Hagerman] {Wednesday   
pm}
   5.6 SBP-2 Status [Johansson]
   5.7 SAM ISO Comments Review (96-236r0) [Monia]
   5.8 Logical Unit Reset Question [Monia]

6. Command Set Topics
   6.1 Obsolete Field Checking (96-237r0) [Milligan]
   6.2 SCSI-3 Block Commands (SBC) [Milligan]
      6.2.1 Should READ(6) be mandatory? (96-229) [Penokie]
      6.2.2 Should SEEK be obsolete? [Milligan]
      6.2.3 Additional Medium Type Codes for 3.5-inch Flexible Disk   
Medium
         (reflector message)
      6.2.4 SCSI-2 and SBC Error in FDD Table regarding Pin 4 usage   
(reflector
         message) [Milligan]
      6.2.5 ESDI Reference [Milligan]
      6.2.6 SBC Revision 5 review [Milligan]
      6.2.7 Security Initialization Proposal for SBC (96-186r1)
         [Weber/Lohmeyer]
   6.3 Review of SCSI-3 Enclosure Services (SES) Letter Ballot Comments
      [Snively]
   6.4 SPC-2 Project Proposal (96-225r0) [Weber]
      6.4.1 Proposal for Additional Persistent Reservation Functions (96-
         233r0) [Coughlan]
      6.4.2 Questions on Persistent Reservations (reflector message)   
[Monia]
      6.4.3 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-248r0) [Stephens]
   6.5 Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)   
[Penokie]

7. Other Topics
   7.1 Greater than 8GB Technical Report Review [Lamers/Penman]
   7.2 High Availability SCSI Profile (1224-DT) [Hagerman] {Wednesday pm}
   7.3 SAM-2 First Draft (1157-D & 96-169r1) [Monia]

8. Meeting Schedule

9. Adjournment



                              Results of Meeting

1.    Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the X3T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m.,
Tuesday September 10, 1996.  He thanked Charles Monia of Digital   
Equipment for
hosting the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of   
the
attendance list was circulated.  Copies of the draft agenda and general
information on X3T10 were made available to those attending.

2.    Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions:

      5.7 SAM ISO Comments Review (96-236r0) [Monia]
      5.8 Logical Unit Reset Question [Monia]
      6.2.5 ESDI Reference [Milligan]
      6.2.6 SBC Revision 5 review [Milligan]
      6.2.7 Security Initialization Proposal for SBC (96-186r1)
      [Weber/Lohmeyer]
      6.4.2 Questions on Persistent Reservations (reflector message)   
[Monia]
      6.4.3 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-248r0) [Stephens]
      6.5 Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)
      [Penokie]
      7.3 SAM-2 First Draft (1157-D & 96-169r1) [Monia]

3.    Attendance and Membership

 Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum
 attendance requirements for X3T10 membership.  Working group meetings   
are
 open to any person or organization directly and materially affected by
 X3T10's scope of work.
   

 The following people attended the meeting:
   

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail   
Address
 ---------------------- -- -------------------------   
 -------------------------
Mr. Norm Harris        P  Adaptec, Inc.   
            nharris at eng.adaptec.com
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers A  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at aol.com
Mr. Edward Fong        P  Amdahl Corp.   
             esf10 at amail.amdahl.com
Mr. Michael Wingard    O  Amphenol Interconnect     mikwingard at aol.com
Mr. Ron Roberts        A  Apple Computer            rkroberts at aol.com
Mr. Peter Johansson    P  Congruent Software, Inc.  pjohansson at aol.com
Mr. Greg McSorley      O  Data General Corp.   
       greg_mcsorley at dgc.ceo.dg.
                                                    com
Mr. Charles Monia      P  Digital Equipment Corp.   monia at shr.dec.com
Mr. William Dallas     A# Digital Equipment Corp.   
  dallas at wasted.enet.dec.co
                                                    m
Mr. Douglas Hagerman   A# Digital Equipment Corp.   
  hagerman at starch.enet.dec.
                                                    com
Mr. Tom Coughlan       V  Digital Equipment Corp.   
  coughlan at star.enet.dec.co
                                                    m
Mr. Mark Hammang       V  FCPA Intellistor   
         hammang at intellistor.com
                          (Fujitsu)
Mr. Andy Chen          A  Fujitsu Computer Prods   
   achen at fcpa.fujitsu.com
                          Amer
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.   
                gop at rchvmp3.vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Geoffrey Barton    P  Iomega Corp.              glbarton at iomega.com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at netcom.com
Mr. Dean Wallace       P  Linfinity Micro   
          75671.3443 at compuserve.com
Mr. Robert Bellino     P  Madison Cable Corp.   
      robert_bellino at madisonusa
                                                    .ccmail.compuserve.com  

Mr. Pete McLean        P  Maxtor Corp.   
             pete_mclean at maxtor.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          gardner at acm.org
Mr. Skip Jones         P  QLogic Corp.              sk_jones at qlc.com
Mr. Mark Evans         A  Quantum Corp.             mevans at qntm.com
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology   
       Gene_Milligan at notes.seaga
                                                    te.com
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp.   
 Erich_Oetting at Stortek.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems Computer   
bob.snively at eng.sun.com
                          Co
Mr. Vit Novak          A  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    vit.novak at sun.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  Symbios Logic Inc.   
       john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A# Symbios Logic Inc.        roweber at acm.org
Mr. Rod DeKoning       A  Symbios Logic Inc.   
       rod.dekoning at symbios.com
Mr. Kenneth J. Hallam  P  UNISYS Corporation   
       ken.hallam at mv.unisys.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Integrated       Aloisi at uicc.com
                          Circuits
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital   
          jwilliam at wdroc.wdc.com
Williams                  Corporation

32 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor
   

4.    Physical Topics

4.1   Review of SPI Amendment (SPI Amnd) Letter Ballot Comments
      [Lamers/Johansson]

Larry Lamers described his comments on the SPI amendment.  He noted that   
his
comments included ISO letter ballot comments for SPI.  Larry said that   
all his
comments were editorial.  Then, Larry reviewed all the ISO comments.  All   
of
Larry's comments (and the ISO comments) were accepted.

Gene Milligan reviewed his comments.  The resolution for Gene's comment 1   
was
decided to be the creation of a separate clause for each annex.  In   
response
to one of Gene's comments 2 and 3, the working group decided to add an   
agenda
item to discuss and revise the SCSI Roadmap, the standards family
bibliography, and the definition of SCSI vs. SCSI-3 at the next general
working group meeting.  Larry declared comments 2 and 3 unresolved,   
pending
the discussion at the next working group meeting.

Based on Gene's comment 5, it was agreed that a correction is required in
section 10.4.1 bullet f.  The phrase "shall change any signals" needs to   
be
corrected to read "shall not change any signals".

The working group took special note of Gene's comment 7, to whit: "... be
prepared to answer the question, `why in the case of SCAM did we use the
opposite signal convention (asserted low) as compared to the convention   
in the
rest of the document?'"

4.2   Arbitration Fairness (96-172) [Lohmeyer]

The working group recommended that 96-172 be developed into the proper   
format
for inclusion into SPI-2.

4.3   Document Strategy

John Lohmeyer reviewed the status of Project 1142-D and pointed out that   
the
issue of whether the SIP layer is included in Project 1142 is still open.
Gene Milligan stated that including the SIP function in SPI-2 has the
advantage of  simplifying of the documentation by eliminating the awkward
service interface.  Various members of the group questioned Gene's   
statement,
asserting that the service interface would be needed in any case.

George Penokie (the SIP technical editor) was pressed to approve or   
disapprove
of merging SIP into SPI-2.  George was reluctant to state an opinion,
resulting from his lack of due consideration of the problem.  John   
expressed
the belief that SCAM and arbitration fairness would benefit from merging   
SIP
into SPI-2.  George was not convinced, noting that all the arbitration
fairness issues could be covered in SPI-2, because arbitration is already
covered almost totally in SPI.

The group explored various questions of benefit or difficulty associated   
with
merging SIP into SPI-2.  Some members thought that merging the documents   
would
be beneficial, but others felt that the merged document would be more
difficult to deal with.  The working group reached no specific resolution
regarding merging SIP into SPI-2.

4.4   Missing SPI Requirement (reflector message) [Milligan]

The SPI-2 working group on Monday agreed to added the "missing   
requirement" to
SPI-2.  The missing requirement was that a node's capacitance is measured   
at
the end of the stub (not necessarily the device connector).

5.    Protocol Topics

5.1   Problem with Non-interlocked Busses (96-173r0) [Monia]

Charles Monia requested that this topic be removed from this agenda and   
future
agendas.

5.2   New Task Management Models for SAM (96-198r2) [Johansson]

Peter Johansson presented what he felt would be the final revision of the
proposal defining the basic queuing model.  He noted that the affected
documents would be SPC and SAM-2.  The group discussed the proposal and   
made
minor revisions.  Peter agreed to generate a new draft containing the   
working
group changes.  The working group agreed to make a favorable   
recommendation to
the November plenary regarding acceptance of the revised proposal for
inclusion in SAM-2 and SPC-2.  The working group was reluctant to   
consider the
proposal at this (the September) plenary, due to the far-reaching effects   
of
the proposal.

5.3   SAM-2 Changes & Layered Architecture (96-191r0) [Monia] {Tuesday   
5:30pm}

Charles Monia requested that this topic be dropped from this and future
agendas.

5.4   Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195) [Houlder]   
{November
      `96}

By email, Gerry Houlder requested that this item be deferred until   
November.

5.5   Tape Support on FC-AL (Reflector Messages) [Hagerman] {Wednesday   
pm}

Doug requested that discussion of this topic deferred to the November   
working
group meeting.  He noted that Bill Dallas is preparing a description of   
three
proposed solutions.  The serial concerns study group requested that   
Bill's
proposal be considered under this topic at the next working group   
meeting.

5.6   SBP-2 Status [Johansson]

Peter reported that a SBP-2 working group met on September 9 and 10 in   
Natick,
MA (co-located with this working group meeting) and discussed SBP-2   
revision
1b.  The SBP-2 working group focused its review on those sections that   
specify
asynchronous devices (i.e., the customary model where data is transferred
between medium and a buffer address).  The isochronous sections were   
deferred
to a later review.

SBP-2 is evolving into a protocol document that has general applicability   
for
the transport of command, data and status for most any command set, not   
only
SCSI.  Early focus of use for SBP-2 is expected to be mass storage,   
although
the command set of choice depends on whom is doing the choosing.

The SBP-2 working group schedule is:

      Sept 23-24, Irvine, CA
      Oct 10-11, Redmond, WA
      Nov 11-12, Irvine, Ca

Peter asked people interested in information about SBP-2 working group
activities to contact him at pjohansson at aol.com.

Peter was asked about SAM compliance and SBP-2.  Peter responded that   
SBP-2 is
moving toward being completely command set independent.  He noted that
development on SBP-2 is being guided toward allowing SAM compliant usage   
of
the SBP-2 protocol for transmission of SCSI commands and responses.  This   
was
a sufficiently obtuse response to generate a lengthy explanation and
discussion.

5.7   SAM ISO Comments Review (96-236r0) [Monia]

Charles reviewed 96-236r0 which contains his proposed responses to the   
ISO
comments regarding SAM.  In his opinion, all changes are editorial.

5.8   Logical Unit Reset Question [Monia]

Charles ask the group to consider logical unit resets in the case where   
there
is a hierarchy of logical units under (behind) a given logical unit   
address.
Charles was referred to the hierarchy definition in SCC.  The group   
discussed
the usage of addressing hierarchy as it is used in SCC, today.

6.    Command Set Topics

6.1   Obsolete Field Checking (96-237r0) [Milligan]

Gene Milligan read the message he had posted to the reflector.  While
researching the proposal, he noticed that there is no statement requiring   
a
particular action when a target receives a command containing an   
unsupported
operation code.  Gene felt that obsolete field checking should be dealt   
with
on a case-by-case basis.  In the case of RESERVE(6) and RELEASE(6), Gene
proposed that the following wording be added to a future version of SPC:

"Obsolete Bits 1 through 4 of Byte 1 provided a method, limited to device
addresses 0 through 7, to handle third party reservations in earlier   
versions
of the SCSI standard. The obsolete method has been replaced by the   
RESERVE(10)
and RELEASE(10) and/or the PERSISTENT RESERVE commands.  If Byte 1, Bit 4   
is
equal to one device servers not implementing the obsolete method shall
terminate the command with CHECK CONDITION status and the sense key shall   
be
set to ILLEGAL REQUEST."

It was noted that Persistent Reservations do not include the concept of   
third-
party reservations.  Bob Snively said that until XOR functions were   
added,
only COPY commands needed third-party functions, which he felt was of   
little
value.  He may want to re-visit the third-party function in Persistent
Reservations.  Gene expressed a preference for either eliminating   
third-party
|from RESERVE and RELEASE or adding third-party to Persistent   
Reservations.

The working group recommended that Gene's proposed wording, minus the   
phrase
about PERSISTENT RESERVE, be accepted for a future version of SPC.

6.2   SCSI-3 Block Commands (SBC) [Milligan]

6.2.1 Should READ(6) be mandatory? (96-229) [Penokie]

George Penokie presented a proposal that READ(6) be changed from optional   
(as
approved at the last meeting) to mandatory (as was the case prior to July
1996).  George's proposal listed several reasons for undoing the actions   
of
the last meeting.  The group conducted a discussion of what is SCSI-2 and   
what
is SCSI-3 and then returned to the specific issues of READ(6).

Gene Milligan presented a proposed revision of SBC showing three   
categories
(A, B, and C) for implementations. Each category had slightly different
requirements for mandatory, optional, and obsolete commands.  Gene   
described
Category A as covering disk drives using 512 byte blocks and formatted   
for
capacities up to 1 GigaByte. Category B would cover disks up to 2   
TeraBytes.
Category C was the only category that made any commands obsolete.   
 Questions
were raised about the need for three categories.

A straw poll was taken regarding returning READ(6) to mandatory.  The   
straw
poll favored making READ(6) mandatory 10 to 3, with 4 having no opinion.   
 A
straw poll was taken regarding the concept of command set categories   
(using
Gene's presentation as an example but not the exact choice being   
balloted).
There were 2 votes favoring the category proposal and 7 votes against.

6.2.2 Should SEEK be obsolete? [Milligan]

After a brief discussion, the group decided that SEEK had never been made
obsolete, by a plenary vote.  It further was agreed that SEEK should not   
be
made obsolete.

6.2.3 Additional Medium Type Codes for 3.5-inch Flexible Disk Medium
      (reflector message)

John Lohmeyer said that he added this item to the agenda after receiving   
a
request for more information regarding high-density 3.5-inch flexible   
disk
medium.  No resolution was reached regarding addition of a density code
(mostly because no one was familiar with any applicable medium   
standards).

6.2.4 SCSI-2 and SBC Error in FDD Table regarding Pin 4 usage (reflector
      message) [Milligan]

Gene Milligan described a problem with table 84 in revision 5.  With the
unanimous consent of the group, he was authorized to adopt the proposal   
in the
editor's note in revision 5.

6.2.5 ESDI Reference [Milligan]

Gene noted that the sentence immediately before table 96 on page 120 of   
SBC
revision 5 contains a reference to the ESDI standard.  George Penokie
suggested that the reference should be removed and the group concurred.

6.2.6 SBC Revision 5 review [Milligan]

Gene Milligan led the group in a review of the changes from previous   
revisions
found in SBC revision 5.  Gene noted that he had added as mandatory the   
10-
byte forms of RESERVE and RELEASE to the command tables for optical   
memory
block devices and write-once block devices.

The working group recommended that density codes 02h and 07h be removed   
from
the list of density codes and, thus, be made reserved.  Ken Hallam noted   
that
no products had ever been built using the 02h and 07h density codes.

The group requested an all-day SBC editing on November 8, to be followed   
by a
letter ballot on forwarding SBC to first public review.

6.2.7 Security Initialization Proposal for SBC (96-186r1)   
[Weber/Lohmeyer]

Gene Milligan noted that the proposal has been incorporated in SBC   
revision 5.
A plenary vote must be taken to support inclusion of the proposal in SBC   
at
the September meeting.

6.3   Review of SCSI-3 Enclosure Services (SES) Letter Ballot Comments
      [Snively]

Bob Snively led a review of the letter ballot comments and proposed   
responses
for SES.  Bob noted that the majority of the comments are editorial in   
nature,
and probably not controversial.  Bob then turned to discussing the
controversial comments.

The first controversial comment was one requesting that Annex A   
(sub-enclosure
addressing) be removed.  After a brief discussion, the group agreed that   
the
comment should be rejected and Annex A should remain.  Discussion of   
Annex A
was followed by several discussions of various editorial and style   
issues.
The group reached consensus regarding the resolution of each editorial   
and
style issue.

Several technical changes were discussed, modified, and approved.  Bob   
agreed
to prepare a comments and resolutions document covering all the letter   
ballot
comments for SES.  He described his plans to prepare a new SES revision   
based
on the final contents of the comments and resolutions document.

6.4   SPC-2 Project Proposal (96-225r0) [Weber]

The group reviewed the proposal for a next-generation SPC (a.k.a. SPC-2),
suggested some minor changes, and recommended that X3T10 forward the   
project
proposal to X3.

6.4.1 Proposal for Additional Persistent Reservation Functions (96-233r0)
      [Coughlan]

Tom Coughlan presented 96-233r0, which would add a new "shared access,
registrants only" reservation type to Persistent Reservations.  This
reservation type only locks out initiators that have not issued the same
reservation type.  The group response to the proposal was generally   
favorable.
Tom agreed to write a more specific proposal for SPC-2.

6.4.2 Questions on Persistent Reservations (reflector message) [Monia]

Charles Monia asked whether the clear action for preempt and clear   
applies to
both ACA and CA.  Currently, it only applies to ACA.  Feedback was that   
it
should apply to both.  Charles will prepare a proposal for SPC-2 and   
SAM-2.

6.4.3 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-248r0) [Stephens]

Gary Stephens described a need for an addition to the   
disconnect-reconnect
mode page based on the Private Loop Device Attach profile (for FC-AL).   
 The
group discussed the need for the proposed parameter at length.  The group   
also
discussed other mechanisms for passing the proposed parameter from the
initiator to the target.  Gary agreed to revise the proposal based on the
discussion at the working group.  The group generally agreed with the
proposal, but declined to formally recommend the proposal at this   
meeting.

6.5   Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)   
[Penokie]

George described a proposal for enhancing Inquiry data to provide   
information
on SCSI-2 command support in INQUIRY data returned by SCSI-3 devices.   
 The
group discussed the proposal and reached no conclusion.  George agreed to
reconsider the wording of the proposal and bring an equivalent proposal   
to the
next working group meeting.

7.    Other Topics

7.1   Greater than 8GB Technical Report Review [Lamers/ ???]

At the request of Dan Colegrove (with agreement from Larry Lamers),   
discussion
of this topic was deferred to the November working group meeting.  We are
still looking for a volunteer to edit this technical report.

7.2   High Availability SCSI Profile (1224-DT) [Hagerman] {Wednesday pm}

Doug Hagerman distributed revision 1 of the draft Profile for SCSI   
Components
Used in High Availability Environments.  Doug asked the group to review   
the
draft and send comments to him.  The group discussed several standards   
wording
issues, including terminology and patents.  Gene noted that the current   
ANSI
patent policy does not cover technical reports, which represents an issue   
for
this project.

Doug noted that the new draft covers only parallel SCSI busses, other   
busses
and protocols have been dropped from the draft.

7.3   SAM-2 First Draft (1157-D & 96-169r1) [Monia]

Charles led a review of the changes in SAM-2 (with respect to SAM) thus   
far
(96-169r1).  During the discussion of new material in SAM-2, it was noted   
that
SAM-2 should contain a discussion of multi-port SCSI devices.  There was   
a
lengthy discussion of the meaning of, and need for, a formal definition   
of
"send" and "return".  Several other proposed changes in 96-169r1   
generated
questions and debate.

8.    Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of X3T10 SCSI Working Group will be November 5-6, 1996,   
in
Palm Springs, CA at the Hyatt Regency Hotel (619-322-9000), hosted by   
Adaptec.

9.    Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 5:00 p.m. on Wednesday September 11, 1996.

 --
John Lohmeyer                 E-Mail: john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Symbios Logic Inc.             Voice: 719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: 719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907-3444    SCSI BBS: 719-533-7950 300--14400 baud



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