Minutes of X3T10 SCSI Working Group Meeting -- 1/9-10/96

Lohmeyer, John JLOHMEYE at cosmpdaero.ftcollinsco.ncr.com
Sun Jan 14 18:52:00 PST 1996

* From the SCSI Reflector, posted by:
* <"Lohmeyer, John" <JLOHMEYE at cosmpdaero.ftcollinsco.ncr.com>>

Minutes of SCSI Working Group meeting in Dallas, TX           X3T10/96-108r0

Accredited Standards Committee*
X3, Information Technology
                                                   Doc. No.: X3T10/96-108r0
                                                       Date: January 14, 
                                                  Ref. Doc.:
                                                   Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:         Membership of X3T10

From:       Ralph Weber, Secretary X3T10
            Larry Lamers, Vice-chair X3T10
            John Lohmeyer, Chair X3T10

Subject:    Minutes of X3T10 SCSI Working Group Meeting
            Dallas, TX -- January 9-10, 1996


1. Opening Remarks

2. Approval of Agenda

3. Attendance and Membership

4. Physical Topics
   4.1 SPI-2 Working Group Report
   4.2 EPI Working Group Report
   4.3 Parity Valid during SCAM Selection? (reflector message) [Williams]
   4.4 Glitch Tolerance [Ham]
   4.5 More SCAM [Penokie]

5. Protocol Topics
   5.1 Resolution of SCSI-3 Interlocked Protocol (SIP) Forwarding Comments
   5.2 Problem with Non-interlocked Busses (95-352r1) [Monia]
   5.3 FCP-2 use of Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Page (95-348r1) [Gardner]
   5.4 Simplified Queuing (96-112r0) [McGrath]

6. Command Set Topics
   6.1  Set/Sense  Environmental  Services Function  (95-324r1)  and  SCSI
      Accessed  Fault-Tolerant  Enclosures (SAF-TE)  {Conner/Intel  Spec.}
   6.2 Set Capacity (95-260r3) [Houlder]
   6.3 Device Identification Page Proposal (95-240r4) [Lohmeyer]
   6.4 Secure Multiple Port Operations (95-322) [Snively]
   6.5 Should the Immed bit be qualified by FOV in the FORMAT UNIT command
      (95-355) [Houlder]
   6.6  SPC  Clarifications  re: WRITE BUFFER Command (reflector  message)
   6.7  Software  Write  Protect  bit in a Mode page  (reflector  message)
   6.8 SBC Review [Milligan]
   6.9 SPC Clean-up Issues [Weber]
   6.10 Tape Block Sizes (96-114) [Lappin]

7. Other Topics
   7.1 Systems Issues Considerations [Penman]
   7.2 High Availability Controller Failover Proposal [Sicola]
   7.3  High  Availability SCSI Profile (95-314) [Hagerman] {Tuesday ~4:00

8. Meeting Schedule

9. Adjournment

                              Results of Meeting

1.    Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the X3T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 1:02 p.m.,
Tuesday January 9, 1996.  He thanked Jim McGrath of Quantum for hosting the

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of 
attendance list was circulated.  Copies of the draft agenda and general
information on X3T10 were made available to those attending.

2.    Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions:

      4.4 Glitch Tolerance [Ham]
      4.5 More SCAM [Penokie]
      5.4 Simplified Queuing (96-112r0) [McGrath]
      6.8 SBC Review [Milligan]
      6.9 SPC Clean-up Issues [Weber]
      6.10 Tape Block Sizes (96-114) [Lappin]

3.    Attendance and Membership

 Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum
 attendance requirements for X3T10 membership.  Working group meetings are
 open to any person or organization directly and materially affected by
 X3T10's scope of work.

 The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
 ---------------------- -- ------------------------- 
Mr. Norm Harris        P  Adaptec, Inc.             nharris at eng.adaptec.com
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers A# Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at aol.com
Mr. Gary Porter        A  Ancot Corp.               garyp at ancot.com
Mr. Jaff Lin           A  BusLogic                  jaffl at buslogic.com
Mr. Peter Johansson    P  Congruent Software, Inc.  pjohansson at aol.com
Mr. Charles Monia      P  Digital Equipment Corp.   monia at shr.dec.com
Dr. William Ham        A# Digital Equipment Corp.   ham at subsys.enet.dec.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     P  ENDL Associate            roweber at acm.org
Mr. Edward Lappin      P  Exabyte Corp.             tedl at exabyte.com
Mr. Gary R. Stephens   P  FSI Consulting Services   6363897 at mcimail.com
Mr. Robert Liu         P  Fujitsu Computer          rliu at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Mr. Stephen Holmstead  P  Hewlett Packard Co.       stephen at mail.boi.hp.com
Ms. Nancy Cheng        A# Hitachi Computer Products n_cheng at hitachi.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.                 gop at rchvmp3.vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dan Colegrove      A# IBM Corp.                 colegrove at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Giles Frazier      V  IBM Corp. 
                gfrazier at ausvm6.vnet.ibm.
Mr. Pat LaVarre        A  Iomega Corp.              p.lavarre at ieee.org
Mr. Dennis Moore       O  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at netcom.com
Mr. Pete McLean        P  Maxtor Corp.              pete_mclean at maxtor.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          gardner at acm.org
Dr. Akira James Miura  A  Panasonic Technologies,   miura at tadw.research.
                          Inc                       panasonic.com
Mr. Skip Jones         P  QLogic Corp.              sk_jones at qlc.com
Mr. Ting Li Chan       A  QLogic Corp.              t_chan at qlc.com
Mr. James McGrath      P  Quantum Corp.             JMCGRATH at QNTM.COM
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
Mr. Dave Guss          A  Silicon Systems, Inc.     dave.guss at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Daniel E. Moczarny V  Silicon Systems, Inc. 
    dan.moczarny at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp. 
 Erich_Oetting at Stortek.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems Computer bob.snively at eng.sun.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  Symbios Logic Inc. 
       john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Mr. Rod DeKoning       V  Symbios Logic Inc.        rod.dekoning at symbios.com
Mr. Patrick Mercer     P  SyQuest Technology, Inc. 
 patrick.mercer at syquest.com
Mr. Brad Bullough      V  System Connection         bradb at sconnect.com
Mr. Dave Wehrman       V  UNISYS
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Integrated       Aloisi at uicc.com
Mr. Matthew Thomas     A  Unitrode Integrated       thomasm at uicc.com
Mr. Tak Asami          A  Western Digital           asami at dt.wdc.com

38 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor

4.    Physical Topics

      4.1   SPI-2 Working Group Report

Bill Ham reported on the results of the SPI-2 Working Group meeting, minutes
of which can be found in 96-106.

Bill noted the SPI-2 working group has expressed a preference for calling 
work LVD SCSI (Low Voltage Differential SCSI).

Additional work in this area is covered under the Glitch Tolerance item

      4.2   EPI Working Group Report

Bill reported on the second meeting of the EPI working group, minutes of 
can be found in 96-107.  Bill described a list of issues that will need
enhancements in standards in coordination with the EPI Technical Report.

      4.3   Parity Valid during SCAM Selection? (reflector message) 

John Lohmeyer described a problem described in a reflector message from Jeff
Williams.  One of the questions was, "Does a device presenting a SCAM
selection have to present proper parity?"  John stated his opinion that all
the data lines (including parity) should be released during a SCAM 
This opinion was confirmed by Ed Gardner and Peter Johansson.

In the same message, Jeff Williams asked about SCAM when the drive ID is
stored on the media.  The group discussed a reflector response from Steve
Gaskill noting that SCAM ID information should be stored in non-volatile
memory, other than the disk media.  If the only non-volatile memory 
is the disk media, then the drive must spin-up automatically on power-up to
support SCAM.

      4.4   Glitch Tolerance [Ham]

Bill Ham and John Lohmeyer described the problem encountered this week with
the release of an actively negated signal producing assertion glitches. 
described an electrically complex method by which the analog signal 
can eliminate the glitches.  Then, he posed to the working group the 
"Is all this analog signal work necessary?"

The group discussed glitches after bus free, data in/out bus turnarounds,
selection, and several other cases.  Some confidence was raised regarding 
ability of the protocol requirements to address the analog glitches.
Everybody was asked to review the issues with their engineering departments

The group recognized five cases where release-glitches can occur: normal
disconnect, unexpected disconnect, SCAM, selection and reselection, and data
direction turnaround.  The consensus of the group was that in all cases the
protocol can tolerate or be changed to tolerate the analog glitches.

      4.5   More SCAM [Penokie]

John reported that private discussions have identified several minor 
issues in SCAM, mostly pertaining to power-up timing.  There are also a 
of editorial issues, particularly with using terms consistently with the 
of SPI.  He said that Peter Johansson is preparing a project proposal for an
amendment to the SCAM annex in SPI.

5.    Protocol Topics

      5.1   Resolution of SCSI-3 Interlocked Protocol (SIP) Forwarding
            Comments [Penokie]

George Penokie reviewed the letter ballot comments on SIP.

The working group discussed whether initiators and targets must not return
MESSAGE REJECT for SDTR and WDTR messages when they support the underlying
feature.  Ralph explained the comment basis as boot software.  Boot-time
software often is incapable of supporting SDTR while the run-time software 
support SDTR.  The boot-time software often does respond with MESSAGE REJECT
to SDTR messages.  After a lengthy discussion, the working group decided 
support for SDTR (and WDTR) is a property of the software running on the
initiator (not a property of the initiator itself) and that the property can
change as the running software changes. In this way, the current SIP
requirement can be viewed as matching current operating system practice.

Gene Milligan (in one of his comments) asked that the mention of soft reset 
removed from SIP entirely.  George requested that the action be approved by 
explicit vote from the X3T10 plenary.

As a result of one of Gene's comments, concerns were raised about WDTR
negotiations.  Under some interpretations, one side might believe that
transfers are 16-bits wide while the other side would be capable of only 32 
8 bit transfers.  After some discussion, the group could find no obvious
resolutions for the issue in the current wording and no obvious need for
changes in wording.  George agreed to study the issue more carefully and
report on his results.

      5.2   Problem with Non-interlocked Busses (95-352r1) [Monia]

Charles Monia presented a complete discussion of the problem he first
described at the previous working group meeting.  He described a protocol-
layer method for flushing the command/status pipe-line between the initiator
and the target.  Charles's proposal was criticized as being mostly a
reinvention of ACA, but applied to more status codes.  Charles agreed to
prepare a proposal that uses ACA to address his needs.

      5.3   FCP-2 use of Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Page (95-348r1) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner led a discussion of the proposal that defines the use of the
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page usage in FCP.  Minor editorial corrections 
noted.  In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that
the plenary adopt 95-348r1 as revised for inclusion in FCP-2.

      5.4   Simplified Queuing (96-112r0) [McGrath]

Jim McGrath presented his proposal that Ordered and Head of Queue task
attributes be made optional in SCSI-3, most particularly optional in SIP. 
group discussed the motivations for the proposal, the benefits for low-end
SCSI drive costs, and other reasons for accepting or rejecting the proposal.
The group reached a consensus (but not unanimous approval) that simplified
queuing would be good for SIP (particularly in terms of competitive

Process issues were raised about getting the proposed change in SIP. 
options were discussed.  Jim volunteered to draft a complete proposal
(including mode page or standard INQUIRY data changes to signify what 
support is available).

Chair's Note: Jim returned Wednesday afternoon with an updated proposal just
after the working group had adjourned.  He discussed his proposal at length
with those people who had not left the meeting room already.

6.    Command Set Topics

      6.1   Set/Sense Environmental Services Function (95-324r1) and SCSI
            Accessed Fault-Tolerant Enclosures (SAF-TE) {Conner/Intel Spec.}

Bob Snively reported on the results of his discussions with people who had
developed the SAF-TE specification.  SAF-TE version 1 is done and in use. 
X3T10/95-324 (ESI) document is on hold.  He proposed a joint X3T10/SAF-TE 
for action to use ESI as a base, add the SAF-TE bit definitions to ESI, and 
have that document ready for distribution in late January.  Approval for
inclusion in SPC-2 would be targeted for March.

Bob described the models and applicable commands and data formats for the
combined ESI/ SAF-TE proposals. The group discussed Bob's ideas and offered
guidance regarding its preferences.

Bob requested scheduling of an authorized X3T10 study group meeting in the
second week of February, in the San Jose area, to review the combined
proposal.  Norm Harris of Adaptec volunteered to host the meeting.

      6.2   Set Capacity (95-260r3) [Houlder]

Gerry Houlder presented the version of set capacity that uses the mode page
header (once revision 0 now revision 3).  The group revisited the choice
between mode page and the READ CAPACITY command.  Using a mode page was 
preferred.  Several other issues were raised regarding the proposal.

In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that the
plenary adopt 95-260r3 as revised.

      6.3   Device Identification Page Proposal (95-240r4) [Lohmeyer]

John presented a revision to the device identification page proposal.  He
noted that revision 1 was discussed and generally accepted at the November
working group meeting.  Revision 2 was prepared for the mailing based on the
working group discussion.  Revision 3 was based on comments from Bob Snively
regarding revision 2 and posted on the reflector but did not make the 
Revision 3 was the subject of further discussion between Bob and Rod 
resulting in revision 4.

John identified the single open issue and the working group discussed it.
Several editorial corrections were noted.

Peter Johansson noted required editorial changes based on IEEE changing the
name of their 64-bit identifier.  This information was provided to the SPC
editor for final preparation of SPC for letter ballot.

In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that the
plenary adopt 95-240r4 as revised.

      6.4   Secure Multiple Port Operations (95-322) [Snively]

Bob Snively reported no action on this topic.

      6.5   Should the Immed bit be qualified by FOV in the FORMAT UNIT
            command (95-355) [Houlder]

Gerry reported that he has been convinced that the Immed bit should not be
qualified by the FOV bit.  He has accepted the interpretation.  He believes
that the topic is closed.

      6.6   SPC Clarifications re: WRITE BUFFER Command (reflector message)

Ken was absent.  However, the working group discussed the following proposed
addition to the SPC WRITE BUFFER (extracted from a message Ken sent to the
SCSI reflector):

      Implementor's Note: The preferred method of use of the WRITE BUFFER
      command when attempting to download microcode with buffer offsets is
      for Mode 6 and 7 to be specified in command byte 1, bits 0-2. The
      Buffer Offset field is left undefined in modes 4 and 5 and thus no
      standard way to implement buffer offset exits in these modes.

The note was described as completely innocuous.  The second sentence was
deemed unnecessary.  The group agreed to drop it.  A request was made that
Ken's proposal be given a document number.  Larry assigned it 96-116r0.

In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that the
plenary adopt the proposal as revised for inclusion in the SPC.

      6.7   Software Write Protect bit in a Mode page (reflector message)

Gerry presented a description and review of the needs for a software write
protect bit located in a mode page common to all device types.  Specifics of
the proposal were discussed.  Gerry was seeking advice for development of a
formal proposal.  Gerry agreed to bring a carefully worded proposal to the
next working group meeting. Concerns were raised with affects on the SPC
document stabilization.

      6.8   SBC Review [Milligan]

John introduced Gene Milligan as the new technical editor for SBC.  Gene
conducted a review of approved documents to identify those that may need
integration into SBC.

      6.9   SPC Clean-up Issues [Weber]

Ralph asked the working group for approval to change DualP (a bit name in 
standard INQUIRY data) to MulitP. The group agreed to Ralph's proposal. 
asked for permission to remove the Port bit from the standard INQUIRY data.
The group agreed to change the bit to vendor-specific, but not to mark the 
as reserved.

      6.10  Tape Block Sizes (96-114) [Lappin]

Ted described concerns with the requirement that tape drives support all 
sizes.  He would like to allow drives to limit their supported block sizes 
defined granularities.  He further proposed that the parameter data for the
READ BLOCK LIMITS command describe the granularity limits.  He noted that 
current goal is to communicate the possible change and ask those present to
discuss the matter with their colleagues.

Ted will provide a copy of the proposal for the mailing and ask for approval
at the next working group meeting.

7.    Other Topics

      7.1   Systems Issues Considerations [Penman]

The working group took no action on this subject at this meeting.  It was
agreed that this is a recurring working group agenda item.

      7.2   High Availability Controller Failover Proposal [Sicola]

George reported that no action items will be brought to the plenary.
Therefore, no report is necessary at the working group.  George noted that
additional high availability working group meetings (a.k.a., RAB/SCC joint
meetings) will be required during future X3T10 meeting weeks.

      7.3   High Availability SCSI Profile (95-314) [Hagerman] {Tuesday
            ~4:00 pm}

Charles Monia reported that Doug Hagerman could not attend due to the 
in the Northeast and there will be no report at this meeting.  John noted 
Doug's proposal has been posted to the SCSI reflector.

8.    Meeting Schedule

John reviewed the proposed meeting week schedule for March 1996.  The next
meeting of X3T10 SCSI Working Group will be March 12-13, 1996, in San Diego,
CA at the Hyatt Islandia Hotel (619-224-1234), hosted by QLogic Corp.

9.    Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 3:32 p.m. on Wednesday January 10, 1996.

John Lohmeyer             E-Mail:  john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Symbios Logic Inc.         Voice:  719-573-3362
1635 Aeroplaza Dr.           Fax:  719-573-3037
Colo Spgs, CO 80916     SCSI BBS:  719-574-0424 300--14400 baud

More information about the T10 mailing list