Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting 11/7-8/95

Lohmeyer, John JLOHMEYE at cosmpdaero.ftcollinsco.ncr.com
Sun Nov 12 21:12:00 PST 1995

Note: The mailing deadline is Wednesday 11/15/95.  If you have any comments 
on these minutes that you want included in the mailing, get them to me by 
noon on Wednesday.  -- John (john.lohmeyer at symbios.com)

Minutes of SCSI Working Group meeting in Palm Springs, CA 

Accredited Standards Committee*
X3, Information Technology
                                                   Doc. No.: X3T10/95-342r0
                                                       Date: November 12, 
                                                  Ref. Doc.:
                                                   Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:         Membership of X3T10

From:       Ralph Weber, Secretary X3T10
            Larry Lamers, Vice-chair X3T10
            John Lohmeyer, Chair X3T10

Subject:    Minutes of X3T10 SCSI Working Group Meeting
            Palm Springs, CA -- November 7-8, 1995


1. Opening Remarks

2. Approval of Agenda

3. Attendance and Membership

4. Physical Topics
   4.1 SPI-2 Study Group Report
   4.2 EPI Study Group Report

5. Protocol Topics
   5.1  Addressability of TARGET RESET task management function (94-236r1)
   5.2 SCSI-3 Interlocked Protocol (SIP) [Penokie]
      5.2.1 Aborting the Untagged Process in SIP (95-351r0) [Monia]
   5.3 Problem with Non-interlocked Busses (95-352r0) [Monia]
   5.4 FCP-2 use of Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Page (95-348r0) [Gardner]
   5.5 Simplified Queuing [McGrath]

6. Command Set Topics
   6.1 Set/Sense Environmental Services Function (95-324r1) [Snively]
   6.2 SCSI  Accessed  Fault-Tolerant Enclosures  (SAF-TE)  {Conner/Intel
   6.3 Set Capacity (95-260r2) [Houlder]
   6.4 Device Identification Page Proposal (95-240r1) [Lohmeyer]
   6.5 Reporting Version Information [Milligan]
   6.6 Secure Multiple Port Operations (95-322) [Snively]
   6.7 Should the Immed bit be qualified by FOV in the FORMAT UNIT command
       (95-355) [Houlder]
   6.8 ASC Stuff (95-344 & 95-345) [Penokie]
   6.9 SPC Status [Monia]

7. Other Topics
   7.1 What is in a name? [Milligan]
   7.2 Systems Issues Considerations [Penman]
   7.3 High Availability Controller Failover Proposal [Sicola]
   7.4 High Availability SCSI Profile (95-314) [Hagerman]
   7.5 X3 Procedure for managing OUI Code [Johansson/Lohmeyer]
   7.6 SCSI Marketing [Hagerman]

8. Meeting Schedule

9. Adjournment

                              Results of Meeting

1.    Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the X3T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 1:00 p.m.,
Tuesday November 7, 1995.  He thanked Jeff Stai of Western Digital Corp. for
hosting the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of 
attendance list was circulated.  Copies of the draft agenda and general
information on X3T10 were made available to those attending.

2.    Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions:

      5.4 FCP-2 use of Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Page (95-348) [Gardner]
      5.5 Simplified Queuing [McGrath]
      6.8 ASC Stuff (95-344 & 95-345) [Penokie]
      6.9 SPC Status [Monia]
      7.6 SCSI Marketing [Hagerman]

3.    Attendance and Membership

 Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum
 attendance requirements for X3T10 membership.  Working group meetings are
 open to any person or organization directly and materially affected by
 X3T10's scope of work.

 The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
 ---------------------- -- ------------------------- 
Mr. Norm Harris        P  Adaptec, Inc.             nharris at eng.adaptec.com
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers A# Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at aol.com
Mr. Ron Roberts        A  Apple Computer            rkroberts at aol.com
Mr. Clifford E. Strang P  BusLogic                  skip at buslogic.com
Mr. Bernie Wu          V  Conner                    bernie.wu at conner.com
Mr. Greg McSorley      V  Data General Corp. 
       greg_mcsorley at dgc.ceo.dg.
Mr. Charles Monia      P  Digital Equipment Corp.   monia at shr.dec.com
Mr. William Dallas     A# Digital Equipment Corp. 
  dallas at wasted.enet.dec.com
Dr. William Ham        A# Digital Equipment Corp.   ham at subsys.enet.dec.com
Mr. Douglas Hagerman   A# Digital Equipment Corp. 
  hagerman at starch.enet.dec.
Mr. Stephen J. Sicola  O  Digital Equipment Corp.   sicola at peaks.dec.com
Mr. I. Dal Allan       P  ENDL                      2501752 at mcimail.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A# ENDL Associate            roweber at acm.org
Mr. Edward Lappin      P  Exabyte Corp.             tedl at exabyte.com
Mr. Andy Chen          A# Fujitsu Computer Prods    achen at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Mr. Stephen Holmstead  P  Hewlett Packard Co.       stephen at mail.boi.hp.com
Mr. Ruben Yomtoubian   A# Hitachi                   r_yomtoubian at hitachi.com
Mr. Anthony Yang       A# Hitachi America Ltd.      yang_a at halsp.hitachi.com
Mr. Zane Daggett       A# Hitachi Cable 
            74354.2576 at compuserve.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.                 gop at rchvmp3.vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dan Colegrove      A# IBM Corp.                 colegrove at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Giles Frazier      O  IBM Corp. 
                gfrazier at ausvm6.vnet.ibm.
Mr. Lansing Sloan      V  Lawrence Livermore Nat'l  ljsloan at llnl.gov
Mr. Pete McLean        P  Maxtor Corp.              pete_mclean at maxtor.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  V  Ophidian Designs          gardner at acm.org
Mr. Param Panesar      O  Pioneer Research
Mr. Skip Jones         P  QLogic Corp.              sk_jones at qlc.com
Mr. James McGrath      P  Quantum Corp.             JMCGRATH at QNTM.COM
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
Mr. Stephen G. Finch   P  Silicon Systems, Inc.     steve.finch at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems Computer bob.snively at eng.sun.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  Symbios Logic Inc. 
       john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Mr. Rod DeKoning       V  Symbios Logic Inc.        rod.dekoning at symbios.com
Mr. Patrick Mercer     P  SyQuest Technology, Inc. 
 patrick.mercer at syquest.com
Mr. Steve Walker       P  Thomas & Betts            walkertnb at aol.com
Mr. Tokayuki Totani    O  Toshiba America           ttotaniAtaisdpd.geis.com
Mr. Kenneth J. Hallam  P  UNISYS Corporation        ken.hallam at mv.unisys.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Integrated       Aloisi at uicc.com
Mr. Eric Swartz        V  Verisys                   eric at verisys.com
Mr. Jeff Stai          P  Western Digital           stai at dt.wdc.com
Mr. Tak Asami          A  Western Digital           asami at dt.wdc.com
Mr. Doug Piper         P  Woven Electronics         549.9900 at mcimail.com
Mr. Arnold Limjoco     O  Yamaichi Electronics      6371175 at mcimail.com
Mr. Don Johnson        V  Zitel Corporation         djohnson at zitel.com

45 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor

4.    Physical Topics

      4.1   SPI-2 Study Group Report

John Lohmeyer reported that the SPI-2 Study Group meeting was held earlier 
the week and it did not finish the whole agenda in the allotted time.  See 
340 for the minutes.  The project has been approved by X3 and SPI-2 was
assigned project number 1142-D.

      4.2   EPI Study Group Report

John Lohmeyer reported that the EPI-2 Study Group meeting was held earlier 
the week.  See 95-341 for the minutes. The project has been approved by X3 
EPI was assigned project number 1143-DT.

5.    Protocol Topics

      5.1   Addressability of TARGET RESET task management function 

Bob Snively reported that the changes are ready for incorporation in SIP.
George Penokie noted that a change in the message code value will be 
for the Reset LUN message.

      5.2   SCSI-3 Interlocked Protocol (SIP) [Penokie]

George Penokie reported that revision 7 was in the mailing.  He noted 
of additional comments from Charles Binford (Symbios).  George reviewed the
changes from revision 6 to 7.  George asked the group to study the current 
carefully, as he plans to recommend a letter ballot on revision 8.  George
received plenty of advice regarding the issues that he presented.

During the SIP discussion, a controversy developed regarding SCAM, reset
conditions, and the BUS DEVICE RESET message.  The ultimate question was,
"Does a BUS DEVICE RESET message reset device IDs and initiate SCAMing of 
system?"  Behind this was a controversial interpretation of the wording,
"reset condition," as it appeared in the SCAM Annex.  If "reset condition" 
interpreted to mean both the bus reset signal and the BUS DEVICE RESET
message, then the BUS DEVICE RESET message would reset IDs and initiate 
However, a careful reading of SCSI-2 (upon which the SCAM Annex was based) 
the working group to conclude that "reset condition" refers only to the bus
reset signal; thus the BUS DEVICE RESET message was determined to not reset
device ID's and to not initiate SCAM protocol.

Chair's note:  While the above conclusion was widely supported by the SCAM-
literate, the actual English in SCSI-2 remains open to interpretation as to
whether a BUS DEVICE RESET message causes a hard reset condition.  Certainly
the message has the effect of a hard reset condition on a given device, but 
is not clear whether this should include resetting device IDs -- a concept
that was not contemplated in SCSI-2.  A planned amendment to SPI should make
it clear that only the RST signal has the effect of clearing the device IDs
for SCAM devices.

             5.2.1 Aborting the Untagged Process in SIP (95-351r0) [Monia]

Charles Monia presented a concern that ABORT TAG is the only way to abort a
process, leaving no way to abort untagged processes.  He noted that SCSI-3
allows one untagged process mixed with tagged processes.  He proposed
modifications to the ABORT TAG message to correct the problem.  Minor
editorial changes to the proposal were recommended by the working group.

In the absence of any objections, the group recommended that the Plenary
approve including 95-351r1 in SIP.

      5.3   Problem with Non-interlocked Busses (95-352r0) [Monia]

Charles Monia presented a scenario where non-interlocked busses may 
ordered commands when status codes of BUSY, RESERVATION CONFLICT, TASK SET
FULL, or ACA ACTIVE are returned.  The group discussed the seriousness of 
issue and the conditions under which the issue produces problems.

Many in the working group expressed substantial concerns about the costs of
the proposed solution and a strong desire that the solution be as optional 
possible.  Some went so far as to express a belief that no unusual problem
exists.  Charles accepted many comments and guidance for revising the

      5.4   FCP-2 use of Disconnect-Reconnect Mode Page (95-348r0) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner presented the first draft of the document that applies the
disconnect-reconnect mode page to FCP.  He noted that the previous 
reconnect work laid the ground-work for this proposal.  He also stated that
the proposal has been reviewed by several FC-AL experts, and has been found

Ed then began a line-by-line review of the draft proposal.  Ed received
comments on the proposal from Bob Snively, Giles Frazier, Gerry Houlder, 
Hagerman, and Dal Allan.  Ed agreed to prepare another revision based on the
input received at this meeting.  He will bring the revision to the January

      5.5   Simplified Queuing [McGrath]

Jim McGrath, speaking extemporaneously, proposed that the Ordered Queue Tag 
made optional.  He proposed methods by which hosts could compensate for the
absence of ordered queuing.  He described the benefits of building a disk 
does only simple queue processing.  A short, heated debate was cut off by 
chair, based on time concerns and the lack of a written proposal.

6.    Command Set Topics

      6.1   Set/Sense Environmental Services Function (95-324r1) [Snively]

Bob Snively presented an overview of the proposed Set/Sense Environmental
Services capabilities that he wants added to SCSI-3.  He described the new
device model aspects of the proposal.  Then, he described the enhancements 
poll for preferences between READ/WRITE BUFFER and RECEIVE/SEND DIAGNOSTICS.

      6.2   SCSI Accessed Fault-Tolerant Enclosures (SAF-TE) {Conner/Intel

Bob Snively presented an overview of the proposed SAF-TE proposal.  He noted
that SAF-TE uses a separate target, based on the processor device mode.  At
the conclusion of the presentation, Bob Snively offered the following
observations and suggestions.  He complemented the SAF-TE work, noting that 
contained numerous useful ideas that his work had not yet incorporated.  He
suggested that SAF-TE be asked to adopt the ESI (Environmental Services
Interface) device model.  He indicated a strong personal preference for the
BUFFER and READ BUFFER).  He noted the straw poll vote taken during the
previous agenda items, affirming his personal opinion. He proposed that the
SAF-TE page definitions be incorporated in the ESI proposal and that the
proposal be enhanced to handle vendor unique strings, based on the concepts 
the SAF-TE work.

On Wednesday afternoon, Bernie Wu (Conner) visited the working group to
discuss SAF-TE.  Those present who expressed an opinion, felt that a large
amount of synergy exists between SAF-TE and the working group's ideas.  The
group discussed mechanisms by which further communications and meetings can
occur to coordinate work efforts between SAF-TE and X3T10.  Continued 
between the two groups was strongly supported, although no one present had
sufficient knowledge of future schedules to define specific meeting plans 

      6.3   Set Capacity (95-260r2) [Houlder]

Gerry Houlder presented a proposal for adding a set capacity function to the
READ CAPACITY command.  The revision was based on comments received at the
September working group meeting (minutes 95-319).

Gene Milligan moved that the proposal be revised to use the mode page
mechanism (and reclaim a "unused" byte).  Steve Holmstead second the motion.
The working group approved the motion 11:3.

      6.4   Device Identification Page Proposal (95-240r1) [Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer presented a proposal for a new vital product data page to be
used for reporting many different identifiers (and many different kinds of
identifiers).  He noted that the group identifier concept is not meeting the
needs of the high availability study group.  Some participants in the high
availability group have asked that the group identifiers be removed from the

John led a discussion of the proposal, including a description of IEEE
identifiers.  John agreed to revise the document based on input received 
the working group.  He noted that the identifier category field will be
changed to reserved and other aspects of the group identifiers will be
removed.  Other minor changes in wording and possible additions of examples
will be considered for the next revision.

      6.5   Reporting Version Information [Milligan]

Gene Milligan presented a proposal for extending the INQUIRY data to return
version data for each standard implemented by a product.  There was a 
discussion of the needs for version reporting and how the proposal met, or 
not meet, those needs.  The discussion ended with no clear resolution of the
next step.  (See item 8.12 of the plenary minutes, 95-343, for additional

      6.6   Secure Multiple Port Operations (95-322) [Snively]

Bob Snively reviewed the Persistent Reservation proposal (95-229).  The 
discussed whether reservations should persist across power cycles.  Rod
DeKoning suggested that persistence of reservations across power cycles be
optional.  Returned status (presence/absence) of the option could be
communicated via a bit in PRIN data.  The group discussed this at length. 
Snively agreed to bring proposed wording changes to the plenary meeting.

Jim McGrath questioned the stability of persistent reservations in the
presence of SCSI ID changes.  Bob noted that persistent reservations depend 
initiator IDs but changes in target IDs cause no unique problems for
persistent reservations.

Lancing Sloan gave a presentation (slides in 95-353) describing the need for
protected persistent reservations.   He received many comments, several of
them negative.  The unanswered question was whether device manufacturers are
willing to make significant product changes to support a secure environment,
especially since there is no clear market opportunity.

      6.7   Should the Immed bit be qualified by FOV in the FORMAT UNIT 
            (95-355) [Houlder]

Gerry Houlder presented a concern regarding validating the FOV bit in the
presence of the immediate bit.  The group discussed the intent of the 
"immediate" proposal.  Gerry was not looking for an immediate change in
the standard.  He asked everyone present to check their implementations,
software and drive microcode, to see how the FOV and immediate bits are 
in relation to each other.

      6.8   ASC Stuff (95-344 & 95-345) [Penokie]

George Penokie presented a request for change in the wording of LOW POWER
Condition Active ASC/ASCQ and a request for two new ASC/ASCQ codes, both 
a new ASC.  The group discussed George's proposals.  In the absence of any
objections, the working group recommended that the plenary approve both
proposals as revised.

      6.9   SPC Status [Monia]

Charles Monia proposed that the current revision of the SPC be forwarded.
John noted that there are a few outstanding proposals for SPC and the lack 
progress on other command set documents may indicate a need to delay the
forwarding.  The group discussed taking a stabilization vote on the SPC at 
up-coming plenary meeting.  A list of currently in-progress proposals that
should be allowed into a stabilized SPC-1 was developed.  Chief among the
listed proposals were the new ASC/ASCQ changes (see above), John's IDs VPD
page, and Persistent Reservations.  Charles and Gene Milligan agreed to 
a stabilization motion for the plenary meeting.

7.    Other Topics

      7.1   What is in a name? [Milligan]

Gene expressed the belief that the ongoing SCSI name escalation should be
ended (SCSI-1, SCSI-2, SCSI-3, SCSI-4 ...).  He further felt that other
mechanisms be devised to report the revision status of a product.  He stated
that, from an X3T10 perspective, the question has been over taken by events;
specifically the formation of the SCSI marketing group.

      7.2   Systems Issues Considerations [Penman]

The working group took no action on this subject at this meeting.  It was
agreed that this is a recurring working group agenda item.

      7.3   High Availability Controller Failover Proposal [Sicola]

Steve Sicola presented the current thinking for high availability controller
failover (95-358) and SCSI-3 fault tolerant controller configurations (95-
357).  The major concern expressed by the working group was scheduling
a meeting that can (and will) be attended by RAB members.  The group spent a
few minutes discussing meeting schedules.  George Penokie agreed to present
the idea of another SCC/RAB joint meeting to the RAB people at their 
evening dinner meeting.

      7.4   High Availability SCSI Profile (95-314) [Hagerman]

Doug Hagerman gave a presentation regarding profiles for highly available 
configurations (95-314).  He proposed that the ideas in the presentation 
the basis for a technical report.

      7.5   X3 Procedure for managing OUI Code [Johansson/Lohmeyer]

John described a problem where the SBP needs an OUI to use to identify the 
protocol in the Control Status Register (CSR) space of IEEE 1394.  John
described the process by which IEEE has agreed to give one OUI to X3.  John
said that X3 will require a proposed process for managing X3 usage of the 
John presented a proposed process that we will ask X3T10 to recommend to X3.
He further described how X3 and X3T10 would use the sub-fields associated 
the OUI.

      7.6   SCSI Marketing [Hagerman]

Doug presented a short talk that he previously gave to the first SCSI
marketing group meeting.  The crux of his presentation was that the name 
2000 be adopted.  He received some comments.  It was noted that the talk 
belongs at the SCSI marketing meeting.

8.    Meeting Schedule

John reviewed the proposed meeting week schedule for January 1996.  The next
meeting of X3T10 SCSI Working Group will be January 9-10, 1996, in Dallas, 
at the Doubletree Hotel (214-869-4300), hosted by Quantum Corp.

9.    Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 6:22 p.m. on Wednesday November 8, 1995.

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