[T10] Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes

Patrick Hery Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com
Thu Sep 28 22:18:20 PDT 2017


Hi Gerry & Tim,

I had some discussion with my engineering team and I’d like to relay a couple of points that came up in our discussion.




1.       My recollection of the discussion during the T10 meeting was that item e) “scrambled idle segments” was originally removed from the exclusion (don’t count for completion) list was because the group thought that these were not identified as “deletable primitives” and therefore should be counted for completion.  But, further examination revealed that these should NOT be counted for completion. (not because these were “deletable primitives” but because they are discarded at the phy layer directly).  This means that the original reason to strike item e) “scrambled idle segments” from the list was mistaken.  It was taken off the list because it was thought it should be counted and not skipped, but it needs to be skipped.

2.       The current argument to have item e) “scrambled idle segments” stricken from the list seems to be that sections 6.2.4.6 and 6.2.4.7 are referring to the link layer only, but this doesn’t seem to be the case.  The start of the sentence in question is “Receivers shall detect…”  It doesn’t say “The link layer shall process...” or some similar language indicating that it is only referring to link layer processing.  I know this is in the link layer chapter, but to us the words the “Receivers shall detect…” seem very unambiguous as to requirements on the phy layer hardware (i.e. the transmitter and receiver).  It seems to us that the transmitter and receiver are clearly in the phy layer.  So there appears to be some mixed discussion in this chapter between phy layer and link layer.  For this reason too, we think item e) “scrambled idle segments” belong in the exclusion lists in sections 6.2.4.6 and 6.2.4.7.

3.       We understand about the figures and the desire to keep consistency with other diagrams in other sections so we are ok with the corrected figures proposed by the committee, but we had a question about the figures included in the document “SPL4 chapter6-updated.pdf” provided for review.  It seems to us that figure 131 and 133 do not have the updated figures showed in the meeting.  We do not see the “idle dword segments” reference there.

Best regards
Patrick Hery


From: t10-bounces at t10.org [mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Hery
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 2:45 PM
To: Gerry Houlder; Tim Symons
Cc: T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: [T10] Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes

Hi Gerry & Tim,

Thank you for the clarification, I think I understand your points.  I will take this back and discuss with my team internally.    If I learn something new to add I will post it here without delay.

BTW is there another section where it says that the scrambled idle segments are never given to the link layer?  Maybe that text could help my engineers.

Best regards
Patrick Hery

From: Gerry Houlder [mailto:gerry.houlder at seagate.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 2:22 PM
To: Tim Symons
Cc: Patrick Hery; Curtis Stevens; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: [T10] Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes

So Patrick, your engineers at Toshiba re correct that a scrambled idle segment is something that is deletable. The issue for SPL-4 standard is that this figure and text is intended to describe only those items that are handled at the link layer. Since the scrambled idle segment is deleted at a lower level than the link layer, they will never arrive at the link layer and do not have to be described in that part of the state machine.

The scrambled idle segment is described as deletable in the next lower level state machine, so it is not overlooked by SPL-4.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Tim Symons <tim.symons at microsemi.com<mailto:tim.symons at microsemi.com>> wrote:
Patrick,

I strongly disagree – as we discussed during the meeting, the Scrambled Idle segment is NOT in the class of deletable primitives. It is a packet that is removed at the phy layer, just as the ALIGN primitives are removed for dword mode.
The reason for the list of deletable primitives, deletable binary primitives and deletable extended primitives is because these are primitives that may be processed by the link layer, which means text is required to describe ignoring them.

The revised diagrams are accurate.
Please provide more information if your engineering team still does not understand the resolution.

Regards,
Tim.

From: t10-bounces at t10.org<mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org> [mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org<mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org>] On Behalf Of Patrick Hery
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 10:35 AM
To: Curtis Stevens <curtis.stevens at wdc.com<mailto:curtis.stevens at wdc.com>>; T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org<mailto:t10 at t10.org>>
Subject: Re: [T10] Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes

EXTERNAL EMAIL
Hi Curtis,

Yes, we believe there is still more work to do.

1.       Our engineers tell us that we still need item e) “a scrambled idle segment” added to the list in sections 6.2.4.6 and 6.2.4.7 as it was originally listed in r0 of proposal 17-135.  This is because even though a scrambled idle segment is not identified as a “deletable primitive” it is still discarded and thus should be in the list of items that are not supposed to be counted.

2.       We believe the original diagrams provided in r0 of 17-135 (figures 131 & 133) are correct and are more informative than the ones selected because they show both a proper detection and a missed detection due to insufficient dwords.  We would like to see these added back into chapter 6.

Best regards
Patrick Hery
From: t10-bounces at t10.org<mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org> [mailto:t10-bounces at t10.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Stevens
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 9:50 AM
To: T10 Reflector
Subject: [T10] Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes

[Forwarded on behalf of Joe Breher]

I am not ‘one of the SPL experts’. That said, this is somewhat disconcerting. IIUC, is this saying that we still have work to do in correcting SPL-4 before reinitiating public review?

----------------------------------------------------------

Joe Breher
Storage Architecture Technologist

Western Digital®
Standards Setting Organization
San Jose Research Center
+1 (478) 2-Breher
+1 (478) 227-3437<tel:(478)%20227-3437>

On Sep 25, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Tom Friend <Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com>> wrote:

I have received the following from our engineering department concerning the SPL-4 edits discussed in our last T10 F2F meeting. Can one of our SPL experts reply to this please?

TIA,

Tom Friend

Director, Industry Standards
Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc.
SSD Business Unit
55 Trimble Road, San Jose, CA  95134
Mobile: +1(360)860-1831<tel:(360)%20860-1831>



From: kenji.yoshida at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:kenji.yoshida at toshiba.co.jp> [mailto:kenji.yoshida at toshiba.co.jp]
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 6:24 PM
To: Tom Friend <Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com>>; toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp>; katsuhiko.takeuchi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:katsuhiko.takeuchi at toshiba.co.jp>
Cc: koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp>; shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp>; tasuku.kasebayashi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:tasuku.kasebayashi at toshiba.co.jp>; keiichi.yorimitsu at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:keiichi.yorimitsu at toshiba.co.jp>; daisuke.mito at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:daisuke.mito at toshiba.co.jp>; masafumi1.satou at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:masafumi1.satou at toshiba.co.jp>; Patrick Hery <Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com>>
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes

Tom-san,



You first have to correct your misunderstanding of:

>>Scrambled Idle segments are not deletable



Scrambled idle segments are discarded at SP_PS receiver. Therefore, they are discarded (deleted) at

the phy layer and not sent to the link layer.

Same thing is mentioned by Mr. Brad Besmer at

http://www.t10.org/cgi-bin/ac.pl?t=d&f=17-151r0.pdf<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.t10.org_cgi-2Dbin_ac.pl-3Ft-3Dd-26f-3D17-2D151r0.pdf&d=DwMGaQ&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=TxI1DC4HavpWBdSmUqvdNvSwgOklhaW328zLt5AOpPM&m=PyBAfrcgTu45m__fAZc8au75RiTH6KEJejGVlSwQbCg&s=8BqvERkKMZ_IQFyJAwsyJr9388RkKqj9lGQze6uve54&e=>



He describes : A Scrambled Idle Segment is used for RATE MATCHING and the transmitter may add them

and the receiver simply discards them



He has to post it because Toshiba’s r1 is wrong. In Toshiba r1, scrambled idle segments are counted as

a part of consecutive dwords. (same mistake as original spl4r11)



So the modified figure in his proposal is consistent with the text.

However, I would rather bring the figure back to Toshiba r0 because Toshiba r0 is also correct and

consistent, and it also has the example of not detecting the second instance due to insufficient dwords.

Mr. Brad Besmer’s modification and Toshiba r2 don’t have this example. So Toshiba r0 figure is better.



So the history is like this:

spl4r11’s figure 131 & 133 : wrong

Toshiba r0’s figure 131 &133  : correct

Toshiba r1’s figure 131 &133 : wrong

Toshiba r2’s figure 131 &133 : correct, but less informative





Further, as I repeatedly say,



e) a scrambled idle segment.



should be added back in the text. So simply r0 is correct and there was no need to change.

If you still insist r0 needs to be changed, please specify which portion.



Regards,



Kenji Yoshida







From: Tom Friend [mailto:tom1.friend at glb.toshiba.co.jp]
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2017 1:25 AM
To: yoshida kenji(吉田 賢治 TDSC ○SP統□HD技○HD六); isshi toyohide(一司 豊秀 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企); takeuchi katsuhiko(竹内 克彦 TMC ○SSDジ□ES技○ES二)
Cc: nagai koichi(永井 宏一 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企); fujiwara shisei(藤原 至誠 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応二); kasebayashi tasuku(加瀬林 祐 TDSC ○SPジ□HDD応○HD応企); yorimitsu keiichi(依光 圭一 TDSC ○SPジ□HDD応○HD応企); mito daisuke(水戸 大輔 TDSC ○CSRD□ET開○ET3); satou masafumi(佐藤 正文 TDSC ○SPジ□HDD応○HD応企); Patrick Hery
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



Hello Yoshida-san,



Attached is the final version that was approved in the plenary yesterday. It has changed from the previously sent version. Please review this so that we can use this as the basis for all ongoing conversations.



There is one important thing you need to understand. Scrambled Idle segments are not deletable and they are 4 dwords in length. This is the main reason that so many changes were made to your corrections. Once that misunderstanding was taken into account, T10 was able to understand the rest of the errors in SPL-4 and so the attached file shows how they will make those corrections.



Thank you for your help with this,



Tom Friend



Director, Industry Standards

Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc.

SSD Business Unit

55 Trimble Road, San Jose, CA  95134

Mobile: +1(360)860-1831<tel:(360)%20860-1831>









From: kenji.yoshida at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:kenji.yoshida at toshiba.co.jp> [mailto:kenji.yoshida at toshiba.co.jp]
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 8:54 PM
To: toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp>; katsuhiko.takeuchi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:katsuhiko.takeuchi at toshiba.co.jp>
Cc: Tom Friend <Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com>>; koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp>;  shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp>;  tasuku.kasebayashi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:tasuku.kasebayashi at toshiba.co.jp>;  keiichi.yorimitsu at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:keiichi.yorimitsu at toshiba.co.jp>;  daisuke.mito at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:daisuke.mito at toshiba.co.jp>; masafumi1.satou at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:masafumi1.satou at toshiba.co.jp>; Patrick Hery <Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com>>
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



(I added some more HDD members in the loop.)



Tom-san,



Instead of modifying our correction requests w.r.t. 6.2.4.6 and 6.2.4.7

from 17-135r0 to 17-135r2 as you uploaded recently,

I would rather bring it back to r0.

In the r0 request, the figure contains both

“second instance is not detected due to insufficient consecutive dwords” and

“second instance is detected because of enough consecutive dwords”.

So the r0 figure is more informative than r2.

Furthermore, please modify back to original r0 for the below portion of 6.2.4.6 and 6.2.4.7



a) the original primitive;

b) a deletable primitive;

c) a deletable binary primitive;

d) a deletable extended binary primitive; or

e) a scrambled idle segment.



As you know,  the dwords in scrambled idle segments are all discarded at SP_PS

receiver and hence it cannot be a part of “consecutive dwords” so the red portion above

is needed.

Please let us know your opinion.



Best Regards,



Kenji Yoshida





From: isshi toyohide(一司 豊秀 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 11:13 AM
To: yoshida kenji(吉田 賢治 TDSC ○SP統□HD技○HD六); takeuchi katsuhiko(竹内 克彦 TMC ○SSDジ□ES技○ES二)
Cc: friend tom(TAEC ISSPI); nagai koichi(永井 宏一 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企); fujiwara shisei(藤原 至誠 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応二); kasebayashi tasuku(加瀬林 祐 TDSC ○SPジ□HDD応○HD応企)
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



吉田さん



一司です。



ありがとうございます。



大変申し訳ありませんが、私はT10の内容までカバーできておりません。

英語でFeedbackいただけないでしょうか?

日本語でやり取りしていましたが、あて先にTomが入ったままでした。

スレッドにレスする形でOKです。





From: yoshida kenji(吉田 賢治  TDSC ○SP統□HD技○HD六)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 10:13 AM
To: isshi toyohide(一司  豊秀 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企) <toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp>>; takeuchi katsuhiko(竹内 克彦  TMC ○SSDジ□ES技○ES二) <katsuhiko.takeuchi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:katsuhiko.takeuchi at toshiba.co.jp>>
Cc: friend tom(TAEC ISSPI) <tom1.friend at glb.toshiba.co.jp<mailto:tom1.friend at glb.toshiba.co.jp>>; nagai koichi(永井 宏一  TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企) <koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp>>; fujiwara shisei(藤原 至誠  TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応二) <shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp>>; kasebayashi tasuku(加瀬林 祐  TDSC ○SPジ□HDD応○HD応企) <tasuku.kasebayashi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:tasuku.kasebayashi at toshiba.co.jp>>
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



一司さん



変更点は、6.2.4.6(2回目検出判断の除外条件追加)と、

6.2.4.7(2回目検出判断の除外条件追加)およびFigure133

ですが、この変更は誤りです。

元の提案通りに直していただく必要があります。

このFigure133修正でダメなことは、すでにT10でBrad Besmerさんから指摘されていますが、

http://www.t10.org/cgi-bin/ac.pl?t=d&f=17-151r0.pdf<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.t10.org_cgi-2Dbin_ac.pl-3Ft-3Dd-26f-3D17-2D151r0.pdf&d=DwMGaQ&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=TxI1DC4HavpWBdSmUqvdNvSwgOklhaW328zLt5AOpPM&m=PyBAfrcgTu45m__fAZc8au75RiTH6KEJejGVlSwQbCg&s=8BqvERkKMZ_IQFyJAwsyJr9388RkKqj9lGQze6uve54&e=>

そこでまた場当たり的な訂正をTomがしているので

http://www.t10.org/cgi-bin/ac.pl?t=d&f=17-135r2.pdf<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.t10.org_cgi-2Dbin_ac.pl-3Ft-3Dd-26f-3D17-2D135r2.pdf&d=DwMGaQ&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=TxI1DC4HavpWBdSmUqvdNvSwgOklhaW328zLt5AOpPM&m=PyBAfrcgTu45m__fAZc8au75RiTH6KEJejGVlSwQbCg&s=RYD1FPcDrJs9GJo6mAxnC-F3dZ-PEcWnZV50CAAw-VA&e=>



これでもだめ(不十分)です。

すべて吉田の元の修正に戻していただきたいです。

吉田の元の修正は、Packetモード時にRedundantやTrippleの2回目を検出

「しない」例と検出「できる」例が両方含まれています。Tomの上げた17-135r2のほうは

「しない」例がありません。

また、除外条件の中に、Scrambled idle segment が含まれるべき

ですので、その点でも元の吉田の提案通りにすることをお願いします。



吉田



From: isshi toyohide(一司 豊秀 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企)
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 9:00 AM
To: takeuchi katsuhiko(竹内 克彦 TMC ○SSDジ□ES技○ES二); yoshida kenji(吉田 賢治 TDSC ○SP統□HD技○HD六)
Cc: friend tom(TAEC ISSPI); nagai koichi(永井 宏一 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企); fujiwara shisei(藤原 至誠 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応二); kasebayashi tasuku(加瀬林 祐 TDSC ○SPジ□HDD応○HD応企)
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



竹内さん、吉田さん



(SD応企)一司です。



お世話になっております。



TEAC Tom  から、SPL-4の修正があり、Voting が必要だから確認してくれと

依頼がありました。

どこが変更されているかもよくわからないDraftが添付されてきたのですが、

これって、何ヶ月か前のSSS F2F meeting でTom にSAS SPL-4 の変更確認を

依頼した件かと思い、転送します。



Tomには1日で確認なんてできないとは伝えてはありますが、

Voting  はあるようなので、何らかの投票はなされるかもしれません。



何はともあれ、内容確認をお願いできますでしょうか?



お手数おかけいたしますが、よろしくお願いいたします。



From: isshi toyohide(一司 豊秀  TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企)
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 4:25 PM
To: 'Tom Friend' <tom1.friend at glb.toshiba.co.jp<mailto:tom1.friend at glb.toshiba.co.jp>>; nagai koichi(永井 宏一  TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企) <koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp>>; fujiwara shisei(藤原 至誠  TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応二) <shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:shisei1.fujiwara at toshiba.co.jp>>
Subject: RE: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



+Fujiwara-san,



Hello Fujiwara-san,

Could you please check the file and provide Tom feedbacks if you have?



TIA

Toyohide Isshi



From: Tom Friend [mailto:tom1.friend at glb.toshiba.co.jp]
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 1:41 PM
To: isshi toyohide(一司  豊秀 TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企) <toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:toyohide1.isshi at toshiba.co.jp>>; nagai koichi(永井 宏一  TMC ○SSDジ□SSD応○SD応企) <koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp<mailto:koichi.nagai at toshiba.co.jp>>
Subject: FW: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



Hello Isshi-san & Nagai-san,



Here are the changes that were implemented today to SPL-4 in the T10 CAP meeting. We will be voting to approve this tomorrow during the plenary session, so it is not finalized until approved during that meeting.



Warmest Regards,



Tom Friend



Director, Industry Standards

Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc.

SSD Business Unit

55 Trimble Road, San Jose, CA  95134

Mobile: +1(360)860-1831<tel:(360)%20860-1831>







From: Tim Symons [mailto:tim.symons at microsemi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 8:24 PM
To: Tom Friend <Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Tom.Friend at taec.toshiba.com>>; Patrick Hery <Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:Patrick.Hery at taec.toshiba.com>>; John Geldman <John.Geldman at taec.toshiba.com<mailto:John.Geldman at taec.toshiba.com>>
Cc: Bill Martin <bill.martin at samsung.com<mailto:bill.martin at samsung.com>>
Subject: Copy of revised chapter 6 showing approved changes



Tom, John and Patrick,



Here is a copy of SPL4 chapter 6 with the changes that were approved by the WG today.

One caveat is that this need to be ratified at the plenary vote tomorrow.





Regards

Tim.





Tim Symons | Storage Architect

Microsemi Corporation

8555 Baxter Place, Burnaby, BC V5A 4V7. Canada

Tel. 604 415 6000<tel:(604)%20415-6000>

Tim.Symons at microsemi.com<mailto:Tim.Symons at microsemi.com>



cid:image004.png at 01D1C17C.FB0C0730<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__intranet_&d=DwMGaQ&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=TxI1DC4HavpWBdSmUqvdNvSwgOklhaW328zLt5AOpPM&m=PyBAfrcgTu45m__fAZc8au75RiTH6KEJejGVlSwQbCg&s=WAMQVZTxlDHJiP0vKXfQ6GqDDbC0QDPc2v4ACpfu_5E&e=>

http://www.microsemi.com/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.microsemi.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=IGDlg0lD0b-nebmJJ0Kp8A&r=TxI1DC4HavpWBdSmUqvdNvSwgOklhaW328zLt5AOpPM&m=PyBAfrcgTu45m__fAZc8au75RiTH6KEJejGVlSwQbCg&s=lK3A7PEepC6aEH7Aca11ntLZbbxVjbCjNglT_WNPOiw&e=>



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