Mt Fuji - MMC:

David Burg daviburg at windows.microsoft.com
Wed Sep 5 08:58:04 PDT 2007


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>
*
Hi Katata-san,
"Duh" is an American slang for obvious.
Yes, the extent of the issue Toshiba is trying to solve is HD content
streaming playback. However the get performance and set streaming commands
are used not only for playback but also for recording settings. We have
discussed in long extents during the last meeting how write and read speeds
interact. We believe it is thus wise to analyze and work on both together.
Playback application software actually can know before hand the maximum
necessary bit rate for standard 3X DVD HD Video as specified by DVD Forum.
Notice that Toshiba as well proposed a method to identify through feature
descriptor the 3x capable devices without media inserted. While we agree
offline detection is necessary, we believe a generic method is more
appropriate so it is applicable to DVD Forum's HD on 3x DVD as well as to
other standards.
I do not understand your explanation why listing speeds is impossible for
devices. Note that we are not speaking about modifying existing devices, but
specifying the command set for tomorrow's generation.
Regardless how good the media is, the device itself has limitations what
speeds it can perform at. For example, a 4x DVD-R recorder is always limited
to 4x recording, even if you insert a blank 16x DVD-R. Not knowing if a speed
will be applicable to inserted media doesn't mean one can't describe what it
is capable in nominal conditions.
Best regards,
David Burg.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com [mailto:owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com] On
Behalf Of keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 12:06 AM
To: mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
Cc: T10 Reflector
Subject: RE: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Sorry David, my writing might not be appropriate to get information that I
want
to know.
I want to know the relationship between explained background and requirement.
We
discuss about HD content streaming playback method.
For example "4-2 Need to provide report of device capabilities at any time.",
I
do not understand the relationship between Streaming Playback and this.
Offline
reporting is just a report of a possibility that comes from advertizement.
And
it cannot be a list. Because some drive does not have steps (list of playback
speed). On the other hand, because of offline, playback application software
cannot know the necessary bit rate on a disc.
Another example, 3X marked DVD-ROM disc should have good physical quality to
be
played back on 3X. No marking DVD-ROM may have good physical quality to be
played back on 1X. They are same but are different. How drive knows? How
about
R/RW case?
By the way may I ask a question that what is "'Duh' requirement"?
Best regards,
Keiji Katata
PIONEER CORP.
David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on 2007/09/04
23:57:22
mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.comに返信してください
送信者:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
宛先:  "mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com" <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>
cc:    T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
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件名:  RE: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Hi Katata-san,
I believe Microsoft has already explained repeatedly the necessity of these
requirements, either on writing like on proposal document, or orally at the
meeting itself. But I will repeat briefly.
4-0 Playback throughput issue is generic
4-1 'Duh' requirement - can't select speed if can't list (e.g. to user) what
speeds are available.
4-2 Need to provide report of device capabilities at any time. Just like you
do
already in the manual and promotion material for the hardware. Another host
software company actually confirmed this requirement to us offline.
4-3 The specification already points that the inability to distinguish some
speeds and rotation control is a problem. Further host can't reliably predict
burn time when rotation control is not accurately described.
4-4 'Duh' requirement. Don't provide host with fake data.
4-5 Based on history of problems with speed control, Microsoft intends to
closely verify that new specification is precisely and properly implemented.
4-6 The group had lengthily discussion why devices do adjust speeds.
Furthermore, the group already discussed that host applications are in 3
categories - read only (e.g. video player), write only (e.g. mastering
applications), read-write (e.g. live file systems)
Per the streaming feature introducing description "This Feature identifies
logical units that support reporting and setting of performance parameters."
The
main performance parameter is the rotation speed. And not only special
playback
software needs to control the rotation speed. Accordingly I believe it would
be
improper to limit the designs to special software.
Reporting check condition on read commands as a persistent setting for the
duration of the media been mounted is a heavy responsibility for the host
application doing the playback. Risk of problems with other applications on
the
system, e.g. if the special application exits unexpectedly or simply forgets
to
restore speed defaults on exit, are very high and likely unacceptable.
Best regards,
David Burg.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com [mailto:owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com] On
Behalf Of keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:24 PM
To: mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
Cc: T10 Reflector
Subject: RE: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Hi David,
I think you may explain how it is used (usage), why it is necessary
(necessity)
and how it is significant (significance). I think "just for test purpose"
cannot
be a reason.
If "adjusted down by device according to media condition" is disabled, drive
will report check condition instead of read data. So the condition control
becomes host responsibility. You may remember that the original Toshiba
proposal
talked about only streaming read. So only a special software that can accept
this responsibility will use this control in the case of Toshiba proposal.
Best regards,
Keiji Katata
PIONEER CORP.
David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on 2007/09/01
07:46:54
mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.comに返信してください
送信者:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
宛先:  "mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com" <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>
cc:    T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
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件名:  RE: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Bear with me, it's a long list. I believe "Problem statement" section of our
Read descriptors for Get Performance command last time already listed most of
them.
4. Requirement from Microsoft
 [4-0 Toshiba's requirement, but generic for playback of any type of content
and
any type of media]
 4-1 Drive must provide read speed descriptors
	4-1-1 The list of read speed must be comprehensive
 4-2 Drive must provide per media-type speed descriptors for all media types
	4-2-1 All media types speed descriptors must be available at all
time,
regardless of current media.
 4-3 Drive must accurately report/describe the different write rotation
controls
(CLV, ZCLV, CAV, PCAV)
[Microsoft assumes no other write rotation control exist currently]
 4-4 Drive must accurately report current read speed
 4-4 Host must be empower to control maximal rotation speed (noise and power
consumption control).
[Alternatively, host must be empower to directly control decibel level and
power
consumption, but I imagine this is too difficult for the drive vendors.]
 4-5 Drive's implementation correctness must be verifiable by host
[If drive reports a given speed, host must be able to issue I/O and get the
performance of this speed within specified tolerance.]
 4-6 Host must be empower to set read or write speed independently, and rules
to
temporarily adjust matching write or read speed when necessary must be
explicitly specified.
As non-technical recommendations:
	Unused fields should be market obsolete to simplify the command.
	A model section on speed control should be written.
Also, I thought Pioneer had the requirement that speed may be adjusted down
by
device according to media condition. Is this no longer a requirement from
Pioneer?
Best regards,
David Burg.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com [mailto:owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com] On
Behalf Of keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 2:33 AM
To: mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
Cc: T10 Reflector
Subject: RE: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Hello David and all,
We need clear requirement for this issue.
1 Requirement from Toshiba
 Drive must keep the higher or equal playback speed for 3X HD content on DVD.
2. Requirement from Pioneer
 2-1 Drive must set its rotation speed for writing when writing occurs.
 2-2 Drive needs to know the end of data writing and beginning of 3X HD
content
playback.
3. Information of 3X HD content
 3X HD content may be recorded in fragments according to its allocation rule.
Could you make clear your requirement? And post it to reflector?
Best regards,
Keiji Katata
PIONEER CORP.
David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on 2007/08/28
15:38:39
mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.comに返信してください
送信者:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
宛先:  "mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com" <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>
cc:    T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
bcc:
件名:  RE: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Hi Katata-san,
Thank you for the refreshed information on the Pioneer implementation.
I agree we need to work on the Set Streaming command so that its description
both better match what devices implement and better match what is reasonable
to
implement - like matching the rotation speed for both read and write when
commands are intermixed, yet leave the possibility of higher read rotation
speed
when there is no writing.
We need to further work on probably both the get performance and the set
streaming command - possibly even the streaming feature itself - to address
the
HD Video on red laser media case brought to us by Toshiba (and in which
Microsoft has interest as well).
Microsoft also needs the devices to more accurately report their performance
capabilities and well as current state so that proper choices and information
can be presented to the user.
There is too a known need for noise control, and we know that some OEM in
particular is sensitive to the issue.
Finally there is a general push for power saving in the industry, and precise
speed control can help reduce the power consumption of optical devices.
Hey, this is probably one of the most complex and most interesting technical
challenges we had in Mt Fuji - MMC in a while.
Cheers,
David Burg.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com [mailto:owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com] On
Behalf Of keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:54 PM
To: mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
Cc: T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: Mt Fuji - MMC:
Hi David,
Yes, you are right. Live UDF now does not update Access time of the files.
From
DirectCD to Live UDF, I had confirmed and requested to stop the action. It is
confirmed that softwares stop it. There are no problem.
We need not discuss the hypothetical operating system but you may understand
that OS/FS spec allows the behavior.
I checked Pioneer implementation of the SetStreaming command. My knowledge
that
I said in the meeting was old and was not correct.
1. Pioneer drive may ignore the Read Seed field (Read Size/Time) (Notes: on
some
cases, drive refers the field.)
2. Pioneer drive refers the Write Speed filed (Write Size/Time) and sets the
rotation speed as lower or equal speed if possible. This is same as Toshiba.
3. When writing occurs or when SetStreaming command is received, drive sets
its
rotation speed according to the write speed. Always reading speed is set to
same
as writing speed.
4. In the case of CD/DVD-R/RW, BD-R, when a session is closed the reading
speed
is set to maximum.
5. Drive remembers the last SetStreaming command then if next writing occurs,
drive performs the step no.3.
The reason why the reading speed is adjusted to same as writing speed is that
the data writing has the highest priority than any. Drive automatic verify or
host read operation for verify are performed by writing speed. Because all of
setting (spindle servo, pick up servo, equalizer, etc) are adjusted for the
writing speed. When rotation speed is changed unstable condition will
continue
for some time length. This is not acceptable.
And buffered data writing and rotation speed change on a Read command may be
a
cause of time-out of the host.
I think we have two problems in the current SetSteaming command.
1. Drive may select lower or equal speed if possible on the current
SetSteaming
command. This is not the next highest or equal.
2. When writing occurs drive may adjust its rotation speed for the data
writing,
not for the data reading.
Best regards,
Keiji Katata
PIONEER CORP.
David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on 2007/08/10
08:53:09
mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.comに返信してください
送信者:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
宛先:  <keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp>
cc:    <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>, T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
bcc:
件名:  Mt Fuji - MMC:
Dear Katata-san,
My understanding is that you claimed at this week’s Mt Fuji meeting that
Vista’s
Live file system will issue write commands to write-once and rewritable discs
even if the content is only played back, due to update of access time file
properties. Thus you felt the necessity for the Mt Fuji ‐ MMC standardized
devices to workaround a mix of read and writes even for playback
applications.
I have discussed with the development lead for Vista Live file system. He
confirmed that we not update the access time on the files. This is disabled
by
default. If you observe such issue, something else is probably going on,
shell
creating desktop.ini files etc. Ravinder has not seen this for a long time
now,
Vista Live file system seems pretty stable. Please provide particular
scenarios
and steps taken to reproduce this if you still observe such issue so
Ravinder’s
team can investigate and fix the problem.
Accordingly, the standard definition shall not be changed and work on future
standard does not need to workaround an hypothetical operating system
implementation problem.
Best regards,
David Burg.
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