MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral devices type 5, and mark time out feature obsolete

Tim Jones tjmac at tolisgroup.com
Tue Jun 19 12:45:29 PDT 2007


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* Tim Jones <tjmac at tolisgroup.com>
*
Katata-San,
I will respond to all of this discussion in this email that for most  
(if not all) ISV's, only writable devices would require this change.   
Therefore, please amend my input to only apply to RW devices and not  
ROM devices.  Since further discussion indicates that all RW devices  
will have a unique serial number, the issues that David and I have  
discussed will be resolved properly.
Thank you for your understanding and patience with this.
Tim
On Jun 19, 2007, at 1:33 AM, keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp wrote:
>
> Hi Henry,
>
> Yes.
>
> Currentry, DVD-R/RW writer drive shall have Drive Serial Number  
> Feature. BD/HD
> DVD devices shall have AACS capability. Then they have Serial  
> Number even if
> they do not support Drive Serial Number Feature.
> I think CD writer drive should have flash-ROM to update its write  
> strategy.
>
> So my concern is CD/DVD-ROM drive.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Keiji Katata
> PIONEER CORP.
>
>
>
>
>
> Henry Gabryjelski <Henry.Gabryjelski at microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on
> 2007/06/19 00:49:28
>
> mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com$B$KJV?.$7$F$/$@$5$$(B
>
> $BAw?.<T(B:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
>
>
>
>
> $B08 at h(B:  <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>, Tim Jones  
> <tjmac at tolisgroup.com>
> cc:	 T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
> bcc:
> $B7oL>(B:  RE: MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral  
> devices type 5,
>	 and mark time out feature obsolete
>
> Hello Katata-san,
>
> May I confirm that your concern is limited only to ROM devices?   
> For example, do
> you have the same concern for devices which write to at least one  
> type of media?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Henry Gabryjelski
> Senior Software Development Engineer
> US - Windows Device Experience
> Microsoft Corporation
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com [mailto:owner-mtfuji5 at avc- 
> pioneer.com] On
> Behalf Of keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:54 PM
> To: Tim Jones
> Cc: T10 Reflector; mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
> Subject: Re: MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral  
> devices type 5,
> and mark time out feature obsolete
>
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> You may think about your problem. I also think about my problem. My  
> problem is
> that CD/DVD-ROM cannot have Flash-ROM to store its FW program due  
> to the cost
> issue. Now floppy drive and CD-ROM drive have similar price. If  
> Microsoft and
> you request to have Flash-ROM on CD/DVD-ROM, the drive manufacture  
> may lose its
> business. As you know, the basic PC model of PC manufacture has CD/ 
> DVD-ROM
> drive, so automatically PC manufacture may lose its business.
>
> CD/DVD-ROM drive manufacture may build a few ten million drives in  
> a few months.
> I think 10000 drives of less may be used in a USB housing. Why MS  
> and you
> request Serial number to all of the CD/DVD-ROM drive units? Why drive
> manufacture must have Serial number in the ten million drives that  
> is required
> only for 10000 drives?
>
> OK, Microsoft USB Mouse, my wife and I love to use it. In a home,  
> my wife and I
> use own USB mouse (one for her, one for me) via wireless LUN IP  
> network using
> USB-wireless box. So Microsoft shall implement Serial Number in all  
> of their USB
> mouse? How about PS2 mouse? I can connect the PS2 mouse to USB- 
> wireless box
> using PS2-USB attachment.
>
>
> May I confirm your requirement?
> I think that the drive that has detachable I/F shall have some  
> unique number in
> the system.
> Is it correct?
>
> Normal CD/DVD-ROM drive that has PATA and SATA is not designed to  
> be detachable
> I/F. So user uses detachable I/F box with such drive to have a  
> detachable I/F
> drive. The box system shall have unique number.
> Is it correct?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Keiji Katata
> PIONEER CORP.
>
>
>
>
>
> Tim Jones <tjmac at tolisgroup.com> on 2007/06/01 02:05:57
>
>
>
> $B08 at h(B:  T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
> cc:	 mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com, keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
> bcc:
> $B7oL>(B:  Re: MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral  
> devices type 5,
>	 and mark time out feature obsolete
>
> Katata-San,
>
> I realize that TOLIS Group are not a voting member, but I would like
> to weigh in on the LUN Serial portion of the Microsoft feature  
> proposal.
>
> In a hardware manufacturer's view, we can see where the lack of the
> logical unit serial number is not an issue within environments of one
> physical type 5 device.  However, as a software vendor, the tracking
> of specific devices on the channel becomes difficult if we have
> multiple instances of the same manufacturer's drive model in the
> list.  By tracking a LUN Serial, we can more readily differentiate
> between drives ensuring that multiple I/O operations are directed to
> the appropriate physical device.  Additionally, since certain
> processes for device attachment under IEEE-1394 and USB environments
> can actually rearrange device order as devices are attached and
> removed, such an additional identifier will assist software
> developers on all platforms in properly identifying a specific drive.
>
>  From a software point of view, we strongly agree with David's
> proposal and request for this specific feature.
>
> Tim
> --
> Tim Jones, CTO
> TOLIS Group, Inc.
>
>
> On May 30, 2007, at 7:34 PM, keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp wrote:
>
>> * From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
>> * keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
>> *
>>
>> CD/DVD-ROM drive that does not have flush can not have "17.4.2.46
>> Feature 0108h:
>> Logical unit Serial Number".
>>
>> I cannot understand why "Logical unit Serial Number" can improve
>> the overall
>> quality of optical device? Why it is not FW version/Manufacture ID?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Keiji Katata
>> PIONEER CORP.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on
>> 2007/05/26
>> 01:12:05
>>
>> mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com$B$KJV?.$7$F$/$@$5$$(B
>>
>> $BAw?.<T(B:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> $B08 at h(B:	<mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>
>> cc:	  "T10 Reflector" <t10 at t10.org>
>> bcc:
>> $B7oL>(B:	RE: MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral
>> devices type 5,
>>	  and mark time out feature obsolete
>>
>> Hi Katata-san,
>>
>> Given that there are already today features that are mandatory
>> current (e.g.
>> profile feature, core feature) regardless of the current profile, I
>> believe this
>> proposal is not changing the current Profile system. If you still
>> feel it is
>> changing it, please clarify why marking additional features as
>> mandatorily
>> current is a different from the features that are already marked so.
>>
>> I apologize if Microsoft's purpose wasn't made clear during the
>> previous
>> meeting. Microsoft's purpose is to improve the overall quality of
>> optical device
>> by making mandatory fundamental device functionality (technical
>> change to the
>> specification), plus clarify the specification from host
>> implementation
>> perspective by centralizing the list of mandatory device features
>> independent
>> from the media and the profile (editorial change to the
>> specification).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> David Burg.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com [mailto:owner-mtfuji5 at avc-
>> pioneer.com] On
>> Behalf Of keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
>> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:48 AM
>> To: mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
>> Cc: T10 Reflector
>> Subject: Re: MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral
>> devices type 5,
>> and mark time out feature obsolete
>>
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> "vote on this small proposal"? As I said in May meeting, this is
>> very large
>> proposal that changes the Profile system of MMC/Fuji and CD/DVD-ROM
>> drive
>> hardware implementation.
>> If necessary Microsoft should change its product logo requirement,
>> should not
>> break MMC standard.
>>
>> By the way, Microsoft does not explain any reason of its proposal.
>> Could you
>> provide us the necessity.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Keiji Katata
>> PIONEER CORP.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Burg <daviburg at windows.microsoft.com>@avc-pioneer.com on
>> 2007/05/23
>> 03:14:10
>> mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com$B$KJV?.$7$F$/$@$5$$(B
>> $BAw?.<T(B:     owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
>>
>> $B08 at h(B: <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>, T10 Reflector <t10 at t10.org>
>> cc:
>> bcc:
>> $B7oL>(B: MMC/Mt Fuji: Mandatory features for all peripheral
>> devices type 5, and
>> mark time out feature obsolete
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> As follow-up from the last Mt Fuji meeting, Microsoft makes the
>> attached
>> proposal. As it is a tiny document (21 Kb), I didn$B!G(Bt upload
>> it to the t10
>> server.
>>
>> We would like to vote on this small proposal at the June Mt Fuji
>> meeting.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> David Burg.
>> <Proposal from Microsoft for Mt Fuji 7 regarding mandatory features
>> for all
>> peripheral devices type 5.docx>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>> * For T10 Reflector information, send a message with
>> * 'info t10' (no quotes) in the message body to majordomo at t10.org
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