SPC-3 device name supported identifier types

George Penokie gop at us.ibm.com
Wed Dec 15 06:59:32 PST 2004


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* George Penokie <gop at us.ibm.com>
*
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Rob, 

This is one strange mess. First things first, the shall in the statement
'The Device Identification VPD page shall have one or more
identification descriptors for the SCSI target device.'  was not
intended. It was only supposed to be a shall when the target device
contained well-known logical units. For commands sent to target devices
that do not have well known logical units it was supposed to be a
should. I would change the wording to: 

If the SCSI target device contains a well known logical unit the Device
Identification VPD page shall have one or more identification
descriptors for the SCSI target device. If the SCSI target device does
not contain a well known logical unit the Device Identification VPD page
should have one or more identification descriptors for the SCSI target
device. Each SCSI target device identification descriptor, if any, shall
have the ASSOCIATION field set to 2h (i.e., SCSI target device) 
and the IDENTIFIER TYPE field set to: 
a) 2h (i.e., EUI-64-based); 
b) 3h (i.e., NAA); or 
c) 8h (i.e., SCSI name string). 
The Device Identification VPD page shall contain identification
descriptors, if any, for all the SCSI target device names for all the
SCSI transport protocols supported by the SCSI target device. 

Comments!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Bye for now,
George Penokie

Dept 2C6  114-2 N212
E-Mail:    gop at us.ibm.com
Internal:  553-5208
External: 507-253-5208   FAX: 507-253-2880





"Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com> 
Sent by: owner-t10 at t10.org 


12/14/2004 05:34 PM 

To
<t10 at t10.org> 

cc

Subject
RE: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types

	





Although you say "There is no requirement that a target device have a
name", Kevin Marks pointed out in the last SAT call that SPC-3 rev 21b
section 7.6.4.11.1 includes this paragraph: 
"The Device Identification VPD page shall have one or more
identification descriptors for the SCSI target device. Each SCSI target
device identification descriptor shall have the ASSOCIATION field set to
10b (i.e., SCSI target device) and the IDENTIFIER TYPE field set to: 2h,
3h, or 8h." 
  
This was added by 02-419r7, which worded it (page 12) as: "A SCSI target
device shall have one or more identification descriptors. Each SCSI
target device identification descriptor shall contain the ASSOCIATION
field set to 2h (i.e., SCSI target device) and the IDENTIFIER TYPE field
set to: 2h, 3h, or 8h." 
  
An alternative solution would be to remove that requirement; then SAT
would simply not provide one if it has to conjure one itself (i.e., if
it is not in a bridge that already has one available). When SAM-3
discusses target device names (sam3r14 section 4.7.2) it discusses "zero
or more", not "one or more".  Which rule did you intend in 02-419r7, the
SAM-3 rule or the SPC-3 rule? 
-- 
Rob Elliott, elliott at hp.com 
Hewlett-Packard Industry Standard Server Storage Advanced Technology 
 <https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott>
https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott 

  


  _____  

From: George Penokie [mailto:gop at us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:54 PM
To: Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)
Cc: Ralph O. Weber; t10 at t10.org
Subject: RE: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types


Rob, 

Reset, I cross-connected my logical units and devices. But the point
still stands. On logical units we have to deal with history which is the
only reason we allow type 1 and it does cause no end of trouble. For
target devices and target ports there was no history on names so we
wisely eliminated type 1 from them. I see no reason to take a giant step
backward. There is no requirement that a target device have a name so if
there is no way SATA can do, so what. 

Bye for now,
George Penokie

Dept 2C6  114-2 N212
E-Mail:    gop at us.ibm.com
Internal:  553-5208
External: 507-253-5208   FAX: 507-253-2880




"Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com> 


12/14/2004 02:29 PM 



To
George Penokie/Rochester/IBM at IBMUS, "Ralph O. Weber" <roweber at ieee.org> 

cc

Subject
RE: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types


	






Type 1h names are already allowed for logical units. 
 
They'll be new for device names.  Since you wanted device names to be
subject to the whims of the underlying protocols, this is the ATA
protocol's whim :-) 
 
-- 
Rob Elliott, elliott at hp.com 
Hewlett-Packard Industry Standard Server Storage Advanced Technology 
 <https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott>
https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott 

 


  _____  

From: George Penokie [mailto:gop at us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:19 PM
To: Ralph O. Weber
Cc: Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)
Subject: Re: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types


Rlaph, 

Yes, I have been watching. It's only an issue if the solution effects
non-SATA things. Which allowing type 1 names for logical units would. 

Bye for now,
George Penokie

Dept 2C6  114-2 N212
E-Mail:    gop at us.ibm.com
Internal:  553-5208
External: 507-253-5208   FAX: 507-253-2880



"Ralph O. Weber" <roweber at ieee.org> 


12/14/2004 12:03 PM 



To
George Penokie/Rochester/IBM at IBMUS 

cc
"Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com> 

Subject
Re: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types




	







George,

In that case, you need to start paying much closer
attention to the discussions of 04-218r? in SAT and CAP.
For a couple of go-rounds now, they have been telling
you that ATA devices cannot be trusted to provide
enough information to make WWIDs for logical units.

The only question has been exactly what form the non-
unique names will take.

All the best,

.Ralph

George Penokie wrote:

>
> Rob,
>
> I have a problem with this. It gives an opening to allow the use of 
> non-unique WWIDs for logical units.  The type 1h ("T10 vendor 
> identification") format cannot be guaranteed to be unique, that is the

> reason we require one of the other types for logical units. System 
> management cannot take a change on this getting screwed up it's too 
> important.
>
> Bye for now,
> George Penokie
>
> Dept 2C6  114-2 N212
> E-Mail:    gop at us.ibm.com
> Internal:  553-5208
> External: 507-253-5208   FAX: 507-253-2880
>
>
>
>
> "Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com>
> Sent by: owner-t10 at t10.org
>
> 12/02/2004 04:58 PM
>
>                  
> To
>                  <t10 at t10.org>
> cc
>                  
> Subject
>                  SPC-3 device name supported identifier types
>
>
>
>                  
>
>
>
>
>
> * From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
> * "Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com>
> *
> During the SAT teleconference today, Kevin Marks pointed out that
SPC-3
> 7.6.4.11.1 requires that each logical unit report a device name using
> one of these identifier types: 2h (EUI-64-based), 3h (NAA), or 8h
(SCSI
> name string).  (that rule was introduced by 02-419, starting with
> 02-419r4)
>
> SAT can do this, but needs to use the type 1h ("T10 vendor
> identification") format in some environments because it is not going
to
> have the tools to create a 2h, 3h, or 8h identifier (see 04-218r6).
>
> So, I propose (as a letter ballot comment) that SPC-3 add type 1h to
the
> list, and include a "should be 2h, 3h, or 8h" rule as is done in
> 7.6.4.11.3 for logical unit names.
>
> -- 
> Rob Elliott, elliott at hp.com
> Hewlett-Packard Industry Standard Server Storage Advanced Technology
> https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott
>
>
> *
> * For T10 Reflector information, send a message with
> * 'info t10' (no quotes) in the message body to majordomo at t10.org
>






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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rob,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">This is one strange mess. First things
first, the shall in the statement '</font><font size=2 face="Helvetica">The
Device Identification VPD page shall have one or more identification descriptors
for the SCSI target device.</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif">' &nbsp;was
not intended. It was only supposed to be a shall when the target device
contained well-known logical units. For commands sent to target devices
that do not have well known logical units it was supposed to be a should.
I would change the wording to: </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>If the SCSI target device
contains a well known logical unit</u></font><font size=2 face="sans-serif">
the Device Identification VPD page shall have one or more identification
descriptors for the SCSI target device. </font><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>If
the SCSI target device does not contain a well known logical unit the Device
Identification VPD page should have one or more identification descriptors
for the SCSI target device. </u></font><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Each
SCSI target device identification descriptor</font><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>,
if any,</u></font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"> shall have the ASSOCIATION
field set to 2h (i.e., SCSI target device)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">and the IDENTIFIER TYPE field set to:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">a) 2h (i.e., EUI-64-based);</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">b) 3h (i.e., NAA); or</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">c) 8h (i.e., SCSI name string).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The Device Identification VPD page shall
contain identification descriptors</font><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>,
if any,</u></font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"> for all the SCSI target
device names for all the SCSI transport protocols supported by the SCSI
target device.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Comments!!!!!!!!!!!!</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Bye for now,<br>
George Penokie<br>
<br>
Dept 2C6 &nbsp;114-2 N212<br>
E-Mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;gop at us.ibm.com<br>
Internal: &nbsp;553-5208<br>
External: 507-253-5208 &nbsp; FAX: 507-253-2880<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Elliott, Robert (Server
Storage)" <elliott at hp.com&gt;</b> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-t10 at t10.org</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">12/14/2004 05:34 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><t10 at t10.org&gt;</font>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td valign=top>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: SPC-3 device name supported
identifier types</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Although you say "There is no requirement
that a target device have a name", Kevin Marks pointed out in the
last SAT call that SPC-3 rev 21b section 7.6.4.11.1 includes this paragraph:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">"</font><font size=2 face="Helvetica">The
Device Identification VPD page shall have one or more identification descriptors
for the SCSI target device. Each SCSI target device identification descriptor
shall have the </font><font size=1 face="Helvetica">ASSOCIATION </font><font size=2 face="Helvetica">field
set to 10b (i.e., SCSI target device) and the </font><font size=1 face="Helvetica">IDENTIFIER
TYPE </font><font size=2 face="Helvetica">field set to: 2h, 3h, or 8h."
</font>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Helvetica">This was added by 02-419r7, which worded
it (page 12) as: "A SCSI target device shall have one or more identification
descriptors. Each </font><font size=2>SCSI target device identification
descriptor shall contain the </font><font size=1>ASSOCIATION</font><font size=2>
field set to 2h (i.e., SCSI target device) and the </font><font size=1>IDENTIFIER</font><font size=2>
</font><font size=1>TYPE</font><font size=2> field set to: 2h, 3h, or 8h."</font>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Helvetica">An alternative solution would be to remove
that requirement; then SAT would simply not provide one if it has to conjure
one itself (i.e., if it is not in a bridge that already has one available).
When SAM-3 discusses target device names (sam3r14 section 4.7.2) it discusses
"zero or more", not "one or more". &nbsp;Which rule
did you intend in 02-419r7, the SAM-3 rule or the SPC-3 rule?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">--</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Rob Elliott, elliott at hp.com</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Hewlett-Packard Industry Standard Server Storage Advanced Technology</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u><br>
</u></font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott</u></font><font size=3>
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br>
<hr><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> George Penokie [mailto:gop at us.ibm.com]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:54 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)<b><br>
Cc:</b> Ralph O. Weber; t10 at t10.org<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Rob,</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Reset, I cross-connected my logical units and devices. But the point still
stands. On logical units we have to deal with history which is the only
reason we allow type 1 and it does cause no end of trouble. For target
devices and target ports there was no history on names so we wisely eliminated
type 1 from them. I see no reason to take a giant step backward. There
is no requirement that a target device have a name so if there is no way
SATA can do, so what. <br>
<br>
Bye for now,<br>
George Penokie<br>
<br>
Dept 2C6 &nbsp;114-2 N212<br>
E-Mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;gop at us.ibm.com<br>
Internal: &nbsp;553-5208<br>
External: 507-253-5208 &nbsp; FAX: 507-253-2880<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=39%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Elliott, Robert (Server
Storage)" <elliott at hp.com&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">12/14/2004 02:29 PM</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td width=60%>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr>
<td width=13%>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td width=86% valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">George Penokie/Rochester/IBM at IBMUS,
"Ralph O. Weber" <roweber at ieee.org&gt;</font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td valign=top>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: SPC-3 device name supported
identifier types</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=49%>
<td width=50%></table>
<br></table>
<br><font size=3><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Type 1h names are already allowed for logical units.</font><font size=3>
<br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
They'll be new for device names. &nbsp;Since you wanted device names to
be subject to the whims of the underlying protocols, this is the ATA protocol's
whim :-)</font><font size=3> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
--</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Rob Elliott, elliott at hp.com</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Hewlett-Packard Industry Standard Server Storage Advanced Technology</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=3 color=blue><u><br>
</u></font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott</u></font><font size=3>
<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;<br>
<br>
</font>
<hr><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> George Penokie [mailto:gop at us.ibm.com]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:19 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Ralph O. Weber<b><br>
Cc:</b> Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: SPC-3 device name supported identifier types</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Rlaph,</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Yes, I have been watching. It's only an issue if the solution effects non-SATA
things. Which allowing type 1 names for logical units would.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Bye for now,<br>
George Penokie<br>
<br>
Dept 2C6 &nbsp;114-2 N212<br>
E-Mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;gop at us.ibm.com<br>
Internal: &nbsp;553-5208<br>
External: 507-253-5208 &nbsp; FAX: 507-253-2880</font><font size=3><br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=43%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Ralph O. Weber"
<roweber at ieee.org&gt;</b> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">12/14/2004 12:03 PM</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td width=56%>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr>
<td width=13%>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td width=86% valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">George Penokie/Rochester/IBM at IBMUS</font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"Elliott, Robert (Server
Storage)" <elliott at hp.com&gt;</font><font size=3> </font>
<tr>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td valign=top><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: SPC-3 device name supported
identifier types</font></table>
<br><font size=3><br>
</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=49%>
<td width=50%></table>
<br></table>
<br><font size=3><br>
<br>
</font><font size=2><tt><br>
<br>
George,<br>
<br>
In that case, you need to start paying much closer<br>
attention to the discussions of 04-218r? in SAT and CAP.<br>
For a couple of go-rounds now, they have been telling<br>
you that ATA devices cannot be trusted to provide<br>
enough information to make WWIDs for logical units.<br>
<br>
The only question has been exactly what form the non-<br>
unique names will take.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
.Ralph<br>
<br>
George Penokie wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
> Rob,<br>
><br>
> I have a problem with this. It gives an opening to allow the use of
<br>
> non-unique WWIDs for logical units. &nbsp;The type 1h ("T10 vendor
<br>
> identification") format cannot be guaranteed to be unique, that
is the <br>
> reason we require one of the other types for logical units. System
<br>
> management cannot take a change on this getting screwed up it's too
<br>
> important.<br>
><br>
> Bye for now,<br>
> George Penokie<br>
><br>
> Dept 2C6 &nbsp;114-2 N212<br>
> E-Mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;gop at us.ibm.com<br>
> Internal: &nbsp;553-5208<br>
> External: 507-253-5208 &nbsp; FAX: 507-253-2880<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> "Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com&gt;<br>
> Sent by: owner-t10 at t10.org<br>
><br>
> 12/02/2004 04:58 PM<br>
><br>
> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
> To<br>
> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<t10 at t10.org&gt;<br>
> cc<br>
> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
> Subject<br>
> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;SPC-3
device name supported identifier types<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> * From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:<br>
> * "Elliott, Robert (Server Storage)" <elliott at hp.com&gt;<br>
> *<br>
> During the SAT teleconference today, Kevin Marks pointed out that
SPC-3<br>
> 7.6.4.11.1 requires that each logical unit report a device name using<br>
> one of these identifier types: 2h (EUI-64-based), 3h (NAA), or 8h
(SCSI<br>
> name string). &nbsp;(that rule was introduced by 02-419, starting
with<br>
> 02-419r4)<br>
><br>
> SAT can do this, but needs to use the type 1h ("T10 vendor<br>
> identification") format in some environments because it is not
going to<br>
> have the tools to create a 2h, 3h, or 8h identifier (see 04-218r6).<br>
><br>
> So, I propose (as a letter ballot comment) that SPC-3 add type 1h
to the<br>
> list, and include a "should be 2h, 3h, or 8h" rule as is
done in<br>
> 7.6.4.11.3 for logical unit names.<br>
><br>
> -- <br>
> Rob Elliott, elliott at hp.com<br>
> Hewlett-Packard Industry Standard Server Storage Advanced Technology<br>
> https://ecardfile.com/id/RobElliott<br>
><br>
><br>
> *<br>
> * For T10 Reflector information, send a message with<br>
> * 'info t10' (no quotes) in the message body to majordomo at t10.org<br>
><br>
<br>
</tt></font><font size=3><br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
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