Proposal: Group 3 time out for MMC device

keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
Wed Feb 5 02:56:15 PST 2003


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
*
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Hi Henry,

>this information reliably?
I believe this is not a issue of Group 3 time-out. It is issue of Read
Buffer Capacity command and product implementation.

If host issued Write 12 Streaming=1, drive should not be writing
Lead-in/PMA/RMD/DMA. Because streaming is already started, so such a
special work (writing Lead-in/PMA/RMD/DMA) is stopped or finished. So
buffer is used to store streaming data only. CD has 2448 bytes/sector, DVD
has 2064 bytes/sector usually. C/DVD writer has 1M, 2M, 4M or, 8M buffer.
>From these value, you need to assume the time length.
The first read operation after write operation should cause Implicit Sync
Cache to use buffer for read. It should cause some delay of the first read.
If it is not appropriate, Sync Cache command should be used.

Any way, host has changed the operation from streaming write to streaming
read. So I think this should not be big problem, if host do not try
simultaneous recording and playback. For simultaneous operation, big buffer
is big baggage. Track buffers for recording and playback should be big too.

>Is it allowed to exceed the G3Tout or not?
No. What I want to say is drive can not accept too short time out to
operate some retry in a command with some performance. "Device manufacture
has expected minimum time to perform retry in a command. The recovery
sequence is optimized in certain time. This minimum time is the fixed Group
3 time-out."

>should be removed.
It is clear that your comment is right. I agree.

Best regards,

Keiji Katata
PIONEER CORP.




reply to mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com

from:  owner-mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com




to:    <mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com>
cc:    <t10 at t10.org>, <twg3 at ml.cds21solutions.org>
bcc:
subject:    RE: Proposal: Group 3 time out for MMC device


-------
Section 2.4, Sync cache time, says the following:

Host can assume the Expected time for Sync cache via Read Buffer Capacity
command. For example, if device has 2M bytes buffer, device can have about
60 ECC blocks of write data in buffer. In case of 1X CLV of DVD media,
Expected time for Sync cache is 4.42 sec (= 3 + 0.00148*(960-1)).

However, the data provided by a READ_BUFFER_CAPACITY command is not
reliable unless a write is buffered.  Therefore, how can the host know this
information reliably?

-------
Section 2.5, Fixed value for time-out, says the following:

Sometimes during Seek, Read and Write operation, device may be encountered
unstable condition or problem. To recover problem, some retry action may be
performed. The retry action is consisted of a scheduled recovery sequence.
For scheduled recovery sequence, device manufacture has expected time to
perform and optimizes it. If the time length is set to shorter, device may
not be able to expected ability. In this case, time-out value is not
changeable.

However, I do not understand if this is suggesting that the
READ12/WRITE12/VERIFY with Streaming/G3TOut bits set are allowed to exceed
the G3Tout or not.  It seems to suggest that group 3 timeout is not
applicable, and can be ignored in these cases.  If so, what will the host
see (>g3 timeout used for a command?)?

-------
Section 3.1, , says the following:

If Logical unit reports 4 bytes descriptor and sets Additional Length field
to 0, all following bytes shall be consider as 0.

However, I do not think it is appropriate to suggest that an
AdditionalLength field of 00h is equivalent to using zero values.  In
particular, there may be drives made to a previous specification which
support changing of timeout values, and then this statement is in error if
the feature 0105h is only four bytes long.  I think this statement should
be removed.
-------

Thanks,
.




-----Original Message-----
From: keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp
[mailto:keiji_katata at post.pioneer.co.jp]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:21 AM
To: mtfuji5 at avc-pioneer.com
Cc: t10 at t10.org; twg3 at ml.cds21solutions.org


Hello all,

I put revised proposal document of Group 3 time out as follows.
 ftp://ftp.avc-pioneer.com/Mtfuji5/Proposal/Feb03/proposal_g3t.zip

After new revision of Fuji 5 is prepared, I will make final proposal
document with Fuji style.
Please send any comment to me.

Best regards,

Keiji Katata
PIONEER CORP.





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