Draft minutes of SCSI CAP working group meeting - Nov 1, 2000

John Lohmeyer lohmeyer at t10.org
Tue Nov 7 10:54:02 PST 2000


* From the T10 Reflector (t10 at t10.org), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <lohmeyer at t10.org>
*
A PDF version of these minutes is available at:

   ftp://ftp.t10.org/t10/document.00/00-374r0.pdf

Accredited Standards Committee*
National Committee for Information Technology Standards (NCITS)

                                                    Doc. No.: T10/00-374r0
                                                        Date: November 7, 2000
                                                    Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:       T10 Membership
From:     Ralph Weber and John Lohmeyer
Subject:  SCSI Commands, Architecture, & Protocol Working Group Meeting --
           November 1, 2000
           Monterey, CA

Agenda
1.     Opening Remarks
2.     Approval of Agenda
3.     Attendance and Membership
4.     SCSI Architecture Model Topics
4.1      Multi-Port Model Discussion (00-268) [Penokie]
4.2      ASCQ references in section 5.4 (00-340) [Elliott]
4.3      Long SCSI Device IDs (00-279) [Gardner]
4.4      Command Reference Number in SAM-2 (00-345) [Peterson]
5.     SCSI Protocol Topics
5.1      Margin Control (99-264) [Lamers]
5.2      Renaming SVP (00-390) [Gardner]
5.3      64-bit Tags in SVP (00-354r1) [Gardner]
5.4      Scatter-Gather Lists for SVP (00-410) [Gardner]
5.5      Access Controls Actions for FCP-2 (99-245r9) [Snively]
6.     Command Set Topics
6.1      Asymmetrical SCSI Behavior (00-232) [Moe]
6.2      Bi-directional XDWRITEREAD command for SBC-2 (00-315) [Elliott]
6.3      SCSI Device Memory Export Protocol (00-312) [Wayda]
6.4      Mandating Large LBA in SBC-2 (00-356) [Gardner]
6.5      Identifying Devices (00-357) [Gardner]
6.6      Unit attention issue (00-359) [Gardner]
6.7      CDB Structure Rewrite (00-269) [Weber]
6.8      Three minor modifications to Access Controls in SPC-3 (00-381)
[Hafner]
6.9      Increased defect list lengths for SBC-2 (00-395) [Elliott]
6.10     EXTENDED COPY: URI target descriptor (00-398) [Peterson]
6.11     Mode Page Equivalent of ECP (00-396) [Elliott]
6.12     SSS Report [Parker]
7.     New Business
7.1      iSCSI [Peterson]
7.2      Aborting commands when changing in/out of packetized mode (00-403r0)
[Galloway]
8.     Review of Documents
8.1      FCP-2 Letter Ballot Comments Resolution (00-150) [Snively]
8.2      SPC-2 Letter Ballot Comments Resolution (00-267) [Weber]
8.3      SBC-2 Review [Milligan]
8.4      SVP Review [Gardner]
9.     Meeting Schedule
10.    Adjournment


Results of Meeting


1.     Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 p.m.,
Wednesday November 1, 2000.  He thanked Larry Lamers of Adaptec for hosting
the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of the
attendance list was circulated.


2.     Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following changes:

5.3      64-bit Tags in SVP (00-354r1) [Gardner]
6.8      Three minor modifications to Access Controls in SPC-3 (00-381)
[Hafner]
6.9      Increased defect list lengths for SBC-2 (00-395) [Elliott]
6.10     EXTENDED COPY: URI target descriptor (00-398) [Peterson]
6.11     Mode Page Equivalent of ECP (00-396) [Elliott]
6.12     SSS Report (00-407) [Parker]

The following agenda items were added/revised during the course of the
meeting:

5.4      Scatter-Gather Lists for SVP (00-410) [Gardner]
5.5      Access Controls Actions for FCP-2 (99-245r9) [Snively]
7.1      iSCSI [Peterson]
7.2      Aborting commands when changing in/out of packetized mode (00-403r0)
[Galloway]


3.     Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum attendance
requirements for T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to any
person or organization directly and materially affected by T10's scope of
work.  The following people attended the meeting:

          Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers P  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at ieee.org
Mr. Litko Chan         O  Agilent Technologies      lito_chan at agilent.com
Mr. Bill Galloway      P  BREA Technologies, Inc.   billg at breatech.com
Mr. Robert Snively     P  Brocade Comm. Systems,    rsnively at brocade.com
                           Inc.
Mr. David Peterson     P  Cisco Systems, Inc.       dap at cisco.com
Mr. Edward Haske       P  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Robert C. Elliott  P  Compaq Computer Corp.     Rob_Elliott at compuserve.
                                                     com
Mr. Neil Wanamaker     P  Crossroads Systems, Inc.  ntw at crossroads.com
Mr. Ronald Stockford   P  Dell Computer Corp.       ron_stockford at dell.com
Mr. Kevin Marks        A  Dell Computer Corp.       kevin_marks at dell.com
Mr. Keith W. Parker    V  Diogenes SCSI             diogenes at europa.com
Mr. I. Dal Allan       A  ENDL                      endlcom at acm.org
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     P  ENDL Texas                roweber at acm.org
Mr. Eugene Lew         P  Fujitsu                   elew at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Mr. Nathan Hastad      P  General Dynamics          nathan.j.hastad at gd-is.com
Mr. George O. Penokie  P  IBM / Tivoli Systems      gpenokie at tivoli.com
Dr. Jim Hafner         V  IBM Corp.                 hafner at almaden.ibm.com
Mr. Bill Troop         V  IBM Corp.                 troop at us.ibm.com
Mr. Cris Simpson       V  Intel Corp.               cris.simpson at intel.com
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  LSI Logic Corp.           lohmeyer at t10.org
Mr. Rob Haydt          V  Microsoft                 robhay at microsoft.com
Mr. Dave Ford          O  Network Appliance         dford at orca.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          eag at ophidian.com
Mr. Mark Evans         P  Quantum Corp.             mark.evans at quantum.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        gerry_houlder at notes.
                                                     seagate.com
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp.  erich_oetting at stortek.com
Mr. Kenneth Moe        P  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    kenneth.moe at sun.com
Mr. Seth Abrahams      V  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    seth.abrahams at sun.com
Mr. Donald R. Getty    A# Texas Instruments         donald_getty at ti.com

29 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
              A,A# -  Alternate
              O    -  Observer
              L    -  Liaison
              V    -  Visitor


4.     SCSI Architecture Model Topics

4.1    Multi-Port Model Discussion (00-268) [Penokie]

George Penokie reviewed the figures in the working model for devices with
multiple ports (00-268r2).  After the group asked for only minor changes,
George stated that general agreement on the model had been reached.  He stated
that the minor figure revisions and words to match the figures will be brought
to the next meeting for discussion.

4.2    ASCQ references in section 5.4 (00-340) [Elliott]

Rob Elliott presented a proposal to cleanup ASCQ related wording in SAM-2
(00-340r1).  In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously
recommended that 00-340r1 be approved for inclusion in SAM-2.

4.3    Long SCSI Device IDs (00-279) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner asked that discussion of this item be deferred to the next meeting.

4.4    Command Reference Number in SAM-2 (00-345) [Peterson]

Dave Peterson presented a proposal to add command reference number (CRN) to
the Execute Command function in SAM-2 (00-345r0).  The group requested wording
changes in the CRN description and Dave agreed to make the changes.  Dave
Peterson moved that 00-345r1 (r0 as revised) be approved for inclusion in
SAM-2.  Bob Snively seconded the motion.  The motion passed on a vote of
11:4:3.


5.     SCSI Protocol Topics

5.1    Margin Control (99-264) [Lamers]

Ron Roberts requested that discussion of this topic be deferred to the next
meeting.

5.2    Renaming SVP (00-390) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner presented a discussion of why SVP should be renamed (00-390r0).
The group discussed what the new name should be but left the final decision to
the T10 plenary meeting.

5.3    64-bit Tags in SVP (00-354r1) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner presented an additional revision of the already approved 00-354
document, discussing issues that arose while trying to incorporate the
approved proposal.  The group requested wording changes and Ed agreed to make
those changes.  In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously
recommended 00-354r2 (r1 as revised) for inclusion in SVP.

5.4    Scatter-Gather Lists for SVP (00-410) [Gardner]

In response to questions from Ed Gardner, those present stated a preference
for adding Scatter Gather Lists in SVP and asked Ed to study the details.  One
person not present but represented by a committee member had concerns.  Ed
Gardner stated that details of Scatter Gather Lists for SVP will be discussed
at a SVP working group meeting to be held late in November (exact dates were
agreed to at the T10 plenary meeting).

5.5    Access Controls Actions for FCP-2 (99-245r9) [Snively]

Bob Snively asked whether he was expected to include 99-245r9 into FCP-2.
John Lohmeyer noted that T10 had voted to accept 99-245r9 into FCP-2 (and
several other documents) at its May 2000 meeting.  In July 2000, T10 amended
this action by accepting 00-261r0, which reduced the editorial effort
somewhat.  The group approved for 99-245r9 in FCP-2 subject to editorial
corrections.


6.     Command Set Topics

6.1    Asymmetrical SCSI Behavior (00-232) [Moe]

Ken Moe presented a revision of the proposal to add commands for devices with
asymmetric behaviors across several access ports (00-232r2).  Ken also
reviewed the comments regarding the proposal recently received from Compaq.
One of the issues raised was persistence through power cycles.  Compaq
proposed optional persistence but Bob Snively argued that persistence is
mandatory.

George Penokie raised several issues about the usage of terminology, issues
significant enough to cause Bob Snively to describe the needed changes as a
total rewrite.  Bob noted that Ken may want to consider the implications of
the proposed terminology changes before agreeing to the rewrite.  Ken Moe
agreed to consider the inputs from the working group and to bring a revised
proposal containing at least the Compaq requested changes to the next meeting.

Concerns were raised about reserving the ASC/ASCQ definitions in the proposal.
Ralph agreed to add the ASC/ASCQ definitions as an SPC-2 letter ballot comment
as soon as the description text is agreed to.

6.2    Bi-directional XDWRITEREAD command for SBC-2 (00-315) [Elliott]

Rob Elliott presented a proposal to add a bi-directional XDWRITEREAD command
to be added to SBC-2 (00-315r1), noting the minor changes from r0.  In the
absence of any objections, the group unanimously recommended 00-315r1 for
inclusion in SBC-2.

6.3    SCSI Device Memory Export Protocol (00-312) [Wayda]

In the absence of Jim Wayda, discussion of this topic was deferred to the next
meeting.

6.4    Mandating Large LBA in SBC-2 (00-356) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner returned with the proposal first presented in September whose
effect would be to make 64-bit LBAs mandatory in SBC-2.  Details of the
proposal were objectionable to several people present.

Larry Lamers moved that READ(16) and WRITE(16) be made mandatory in the SBC-2
direct-access device type command set.  Ed Gardner seconded the motion.  The
motion passed on a vote of 9:3:4.

6.5    Identifying Devices (00-357) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner described the issues associated with identifying devices in
combinations of InfiniBand fabrics and Fibre Channel fabrics.  Ed took several
notes and agreed to bring more proposal information to the SVP working group
meeting to be held late in November (exact dates were agreed to at the T10
plenary meeting).

6.6    Unit attention issue (00-359) [Gardner]

Ed Gardner asked that discussion of this item be deferred to the next meeting.

6.7    CDB Structure Rewrite (00-269) [Weber]

Ralph Weber reported that this subject will be discussed during the SPC-2
letter ballot resolution meeting following the T10 plenary meeting on
Thursday.

6.8    Three minor modifications to Access Controls in SPC-3 (00-381) [Hafner]

Jim Hafner presented a proposal to open up vendor specific options in Access
Controls and to correct a bug in the Access Controls changes to EXTENDED COPY
(00-381r0).  The addition of vendor specific fields caused some concerns.  The
lack of a specific ASC/ASCQ for the EXTENDED COPY error case produced a little
concern but was found acceptable.  In the absence of any objections, the group
unanimously recommended 00-381r0 for inclusion in SPC-3.

6.9    Increased defect list lengths for SBC-2 (00-395) [Elliott]

Rob Elliot presented a proposal concerning defect reporting and management in
SBC-2 (00-395r0).  Rob Elliott moved that 00-395r0 be recommended for
inclusion in SBC-2.  Mark Evans seconded the motion.  The motion passed on a
vote of 8:1:5.

6.10   EXTENDED COPY: URI target descriptor (00-398) [Peterson]

Dave Peterson presented a proposal to add URI (Universal Resource Identifier)
to the EXTENDED COPY command (00-398r0).  The proposed format failed to
conform with the fixed length 32 byte format specified for Target Descriptors.
The uniqueness of the URI was also questioned and Dave offered the IPv4
identifier as a substitute.

Later in the day, Dave presented 00-398r1 that used an IPv4 address instead of
a URI.  The group requested changes in the descriptor format.  Dave Peterson
moved that 00-398r2 (r1 as modified) be approved for inclusion in SPC-2.
Erich Oetting seconded the motion.  The motion passed on a vote of 8:1:8.

6.11   Mode Page Equivalent of ECP (00-396) [Elliott]

Rob Elliott presented a proposal to provide Expander Control Protocol data
using mode pages (00-396r2).  One aspect of the proposal was defining subpage
codes for mode pages.  In the absence of any objections, the group unanimously
recommended 00-396r2 for inclusion in SPC-3 and SPI-4.

6.12   SSS Report [Parker]

Keith Parker reported that no progress has been made on SSS.


7.     New Business

7.1    iSCSI [Peterson]

Dave Peterson suggested that the iSCSI work might be better done in T10.
Larry Lamers felt that face-to-face meetings would be helpful to solve iSCSI
problems; he suggested co-located meetings.  George Penokie noted that many of
the iSCSI problems are beyond the scope of T10 expertise.  Bob Snively noted
that expertise always appears and lack of expertise should not be taken as an
issue.  Dave clarified his interest as being having T10 work on an iSCSI
project in place of IETF but in proper cooperation with IETF, and stated that
his request for a straw poll covered just that issue.  John Lohmeyer, Ed
Gardner, and Larry Lamers all were adamant that cooperation with IETF was
critical.  In the absence of any objections, the straw poll was recorded as
unanimously favoring placing iSCSI under T10.

7.2    Aborting commands when changing in/out of packetized mode (00-403r0)
[Galloway]

Bill Galloway discussed the areas of confusion in 00-403r0, do all commands
for all initiators get aborted or just the commands for the initiator that
changed in/out of packetized mode?  The answer was just the commands for the
initiator making the change get aborted but all other commands are unaffected.

Bill also discussed the question of where to put this information.  He stated
that there are no really good places to put it.  His recommendation was to put
the text in the overview section with cross-references as needed.

Rob Elliott raised concerns about 8-bit verses 16-bit tags and it was agreed
to address the issue in a separate proposal.


8.     Review of Documents

8.1    FCP-2 Letter Ballot Comments Resolution (00-150) [Snively]

Bob Snively reported that the FCP-2 letter ballot review was conducted in the
Joint T10/T11.3 Meeting on Monday (minutes in 00-411).

8.2    SPC-2 Letter Ballot Comments Resolution (00-267) [Weber]

Ralph Weber reported that the SPC-2 letter ballot resolution will be discussed
in a meeting following the T10 plenary meeting on Thursday.  (Secretary's
note: the results of the meeting are summarized in 00-407.)

8.3    SBC-2 Review [Milligan]

In the absence of Gene Milligan, action on this item was deferred to the next
meeting.

8.4    SVP Review [Gardner]

Ed Gardner discussed the situation surrounding the addition of a
scatter-gather capability to SVP.  Dave Ford stated his support for adding
scatter-gather and Ed noted that others have expressed interest in the
feature.  Bob Snively questioned the usefulness of scatter-gather and Ed
explained how it could be used.  Bob explained the degree to which
scatter-gather complicates the interface and suggested that it may result in
non-interoperable implementations.  Additional discussion of scatter-gather
lists occurred as part of item 5.4.


9.     Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of the SCSI Commands, Architecture, and Protocols Working
Group will be Wednesday, January 17, 2001 from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. (or until all
agenda items are completed).  The meeting will be at the Grosvenor Resort
(407) 828-4444 in Lake Buena Vista, FL, hosted by Adaptec, Inc.


10.    Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 5:30 p.m. on Wednesday January 17, 2001.


--
John Lohmeyer                  Email: lohmeyer at t10.org
LSI Logic Corp.                Voice: +1-719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: +1-719-533-7183
Colo Spgs, CO 80907

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