Draft Minutes of SPI-3 Working Group Meeting -- November 3, 1998

John Lohmeyer lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Tue Nov 10 09:36:28 PST 1998


* From the T10 (formerly SCSI) Reflector (t10 at symbios.com), posted by:
* John Lohmeyer <lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com>
*
These minutes can also be found in PDF format at:

  ftp://ftp.symbios.com/pub/standards/io/t10/document.98/98-232r0.pdf

Accredited Standards Committee*
National Committee for Information Technology Standards (NCITS)

                                                Doc. No.: T10/98-232r0
                                                    Date: November 10, 1998
                                                Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:      T10 Membership
From:    Ralph Weber / John Lohmeyer
Subject: SPI-3 Working Group Meeting -- November 3, 1998
         Palm Springs, CA

Agenda

1.     Opening Remarks
2.     Approval of Agenda
3.     Attendance and Membership
4.     SPI-3 Topics
4.1      Staged Contact Resistance (98-240r0) [Herrmann]
4.2      Load Compensation (98-238r0) [Novak]
4.3      Bias Reduction Proposal (98-156) [Bridgewater]
4.4      InterSymbol Interference (98-199) [Penman]
4.5      Setup and Hold Time Measurements (98-211r0) [Penman]
4.6      `Small' change to single-ended termination current (98-220r1, -226r1)
[Grantham, Aloisi]
4.7      Removing 32-bit support from SPI-3 (98-231r0) [Elliott]
4.8      Review of SPI-3 Rev 1 [Penokie]
4.9      Quick Arbitrate Timing Issues (reflector messages) [Milligan/Moore]
4.10     Timing Specification on ATN during synchronous transfers (reflector
messages) [Galloway/Milligan]
4.11     Packetized SCSI Issue (98-237r0) [Sippy]
4.12     Proposed Domain Validation Annex (98-235r0) [Lohmeyer]
4.13     Cable Testing Requirements (98-219r1) [Daggett]
4.14     QAS and Glitch Filters (98-239r0) [Leshay]
5.     Meeting Schedule
6.     Adjournment


Results of Meeting

1.     Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m.,
Tuesday November 3, 1998.  He thanked Larry Lamers of Adaptec for hosting the
meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of the
attendance list was circulated.

2.     Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions and changes:

4.13     Cable Testing Requirements (98-219r1) [Daggett]
4.14     QAS and Glitch Filters (98-239r0) [Leshay]

No agenda items were added during the course of the meeting.

3.     Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum attendance
requirements for T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to any
person or organization directly and materially affected by T10's scope of
work.  The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail Address
---------------------- -- ------------------------- -------------------------
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers P  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at ieee.org
Mr. Vincent Bastiani   A# Adaptec, Inc.             bastiani at corp.adaptec.com
Mr. Robert Frey        O  Advansys                  bobf at advansys.com
Mr. Scott Lindstrom    P  AMP, Inc.                 slindstr at amp.com
Mr. Charles Brill      A  AMP, Inc.                 cebrill at amp.com
Mr. Hank Herrmann      O  AMP, Inc.                 Hank.Herrmann at amp.com
Mr. Michael Wingard    A  Amphenol Interconnect     mikwingard at aol.com
Mr. Douglas Wagner     P  Berg Electronics          wagnerdl at bergelect.com
Mr. Bill Galloway      V  BREA Technologies         billg at breatech.com
Mr. Edward Haske       P  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Robert C. Elliott  P  Compaq Computer Corp.     Robert.Elliott at compaq.com
Dr. William Ham        A  Compaq Computer Corp.     bill.ham at digital.com
Mr. Charles Tashbook   P  Dallas Semiconductor      charles.tashbook at dalsemi.
                                                    com
Mr. Tom Jackson        P  Exabyte Corp.             thomasj at exabyte.com
Mr. Ben-Koon Lin       P  Fujitsu (FCPA)            blin at fcpa.fujitsu.com
Mr. Zane Daggett       P  Hitachi Cable Manchester, zdaggett at hcm.hitachi.com
                          Inc
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.                 gop at us.ibm.com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Louis Grantham     P  Linfinity Micro           lgrantham at linfinity.com

Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  LSI Logic Corp.           lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Alan Littlewood    A  LSI Logic Corp.           alanl at lsil.com
Mr. Steve Stefek       A# LSI Logic Corp.           steve.stefek at lsil.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A# LSI Logic Corp.           roweber at acm.org
Mr. Frank Gasparik     V  LSI Logic Corp.           frank.gasparik at lsil.com
Mr. Charley Riegger    O  Maxtor Corp.              charles_reigger at maxtor.
                                                    com
Mr. Martin Ogbuokiri   O  Molex Inc.                mogbuokiri at molex.com
Mr. Dean Wallace       A# QLogic Corp.              d_wallace at qlc.com
Mr. Chandru Sippy      V  QLogic Corp.              c_sippy at qlc.com
Mr. Mark Evans         P  Quantum Corp.             mark.evans at quantum.com
Mr. Bruce Leshay       V  Quantum Corp.             bleshay at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Richard Uber       V  Quantum Corp.             duber at tdh.qntm.com
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Daniel (Dan) F.    O  Seagate Technology        daniel_f_smith at notes.
Smith                                               seagate.com
Mr. Mayank R. Patel    V  Seagate Technology        patel at cdg.stsv.seagate.
                                                    com
Mr. Bill Gintz         V  Seus, Inc.                wcgintz at ix.netcom.com
Mr. Dave Guss          P  Silicon Systems, Inc.     dave.guss at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Paresh Sheth       V  Silicon Systems, Inc.     paresh.sheth at tus.ssi1.com
Mr. Vit Novak          A  Sun Microsystems, Inc.    vit.novak at sun.com
Mr. Bill Youngman      P  The JPM Company           byoungman at jpmsj.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Donald R. Getty    A  Unitrode Corporation      gettd at unitrode.com

42 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor

4.     SPI-3 Topics

4.1    Staged Contact Resistance (98-240r0) [Herrmann]

Hank Herrmann presented an overview of the dual-conductivity contact connector
system developed by AMP (98-240r0) for the SCA-2 connector.  He showed test
data based on a prototype connector and offered to show a sample connector to
interested members.  It was noted that the dual-conductivity contacts must be
on the device connector, not the backplane connector.  Unfortunately, this
would mean that the extra costs associated with the dual-conductivity contacts
might be borne by all applications, not just those that need hot plugging.

The group discussed what changes, if any, might be required in various
standards to allow usage of this connector contact system.  Making the
dual-conductivity contact a requirement for case four hot-plugging also was
discussed, but not pursued.

Patent issues were discussed and John noted that the ANSI patent licensing
requirements would apply only if the dual-conductivity contact were to become
a requirement in a standard.

4.2    Load Compensation (98-238r0) [Novak]

Vit Novak presented new data on load compensation (98-238r0) and requested
feedback from the group on the new information.  He noted that the data is
very fresh from the laboratory and not well summarized.  He described this
presentation as a continuation of the work presented in November 1997, March
1998, and July 1998 (97-281r0, minutes in 97-272r1, 98-125r1, and 98-200r0).

Bill Ham and Bill Gintz expressed interest in Vit's work.  Bill Ham offered
advice regarding further simulations and laboratory tests that might be
performed.  Vit took several notes regarding future work.

4.3    Bias Reduction Proposal (98-156) [Bridgewater]

In the absence of Wally Bridgewater, discussion of this topic was deferred to
the next meeting.

4.4    InterSymbol Interference (98-199) [Penman]


In the absence of Duncan Penman, Bruce Leshay requested that this item be
deferred to the next meeting.

4.5    Setup and Hold Time Measurements (98-211r0) [Penman]

In the absence of Duncan Penman, Bruce Leshay requested that this item be
deferred to the next meeting.

4.6    `Small' change to single-ended termination current (98-220r1, -226r1)
[Grantham, Aloisi]

Louis Grantham presented the case for changing the single-ended termination
current in SPI-3 (98-220r1).  He characterized the case for not making the
proposed change as an issue of whether older devices with higher leakage
currents continue to need support in SPI-3.

Paul Aloisi presented the case for keeping the single-ended termination
current as specified in SPI-2 (98-226r1).  He said the proposed change was
insufficient; other requirements also would have to be changed.  Paul proposed
that the formula specified in SPI-2 be changed to an I-V curve in SPI-3 and
noted where changes in the I-V curve would be required to support the needs
described by Louis.

The I-V curve concept proved acceptable to Louis, however, details of Paul's
proposed curve worried him.  Louis and Paul agreed to develop a mutually
agreeable I-V curve for presentation at the next SPI-3 working group.

4.7    Removing 32-bit support from SPI-3 (98-231r0) [Elliott]

Rob Elliott's proposal would remove all 32-bit support from SPI-3.  George
Penokie described a tentative effort to define a single 32-bit cable and
connector option.  George agreed that the Q connector could be made obsolete,
but proposed that other aspects of 32-bit support remain in SPI-3 for the time
being.

A straw poll was taken as follows.  A) Do you favor keeping 32-bit support in
SPI-3 based on use of a single cable and connector?  Received 6 votes.  B) Do
you favor removing all discussion of 32-bit support in SPI-3?  Received 16
votes.

4.8    Review of SPI-3 Rev 1 [Penokie]

Gene Milligan asked if there is a schedule for the development of SPI-3.  John
Lohmeyer reported that the project proposal for SPI-3 says that forwarding to
NCITS will occur in May, 1999.  Gene suggested that the group consider setting
a cutoff date for new proposals.

George Penokie led a page-by-page review of SPI-3 revision 1.  Gene Milligan,
Bill Galloway, Bruce Leshay, Vince Bastiani, Dan Smith, and others provided
comments.

4.9    Quick Arbitrate Timing Issues (reflector messages) [Milligan/Moore]

George Penokie reported that this issue does not exist because the timing
value does not appear in SPI-3.  Bill Galloway noted some additional issues
and Bruce Leshay noted that such issues can be discussed as part of the SPI-3
review.

Gene Milligan noted that timing definitions now include QA maximum assertion
and release times, but the defined times are not used in the protocol
description.  The discussion then proceeded to the SPI-3 review.  (Also see
agenda item 4.14.)

4.10   Timing Specification on ATN during synchronous transfers (reflector
messages) [Galloway/Milligan]

Bill Galloway described a problem with the system deskew delay. In SCSI-2, the
deskew delay got smaller at higher transfer rates.  In SPI-3, the deskew delay
is a constant for all transfer rates.  The concern was that, at high transfer
rates, ATN cannot be asserted within the requirements stated in SPI-3, which
complicates how the initiator reports errors to the target.  Some of the
complexity occurs when the host wants to report a parity error immediately so
that the failed byte can be determined.  Other complexity occurs in very short
transfers.  George Penokie encouraged the development of a written, definitive
change proposal.

4.11   Packetized SCSI Issue (98-237r0) [Sippy]

Chandru Sippy presented a concern related to an automatic Save Data Pointers
function in the definition of packetized protocol.  Chandru wanted this
function to not be automatic to facilitate error recovery procedures.  The
group pointed out that a Modify Data Pointers message could be used in this

case.  Chandru said that a Modify Data Pointer message could not move the
data
point before the saved data pointer value.  The group disagreed.

John Lohmeyer felt that a clarification about this point should be made to
avoid further confusion.  George noted that he would make no changes to SPI-3
in this area unless a written proposal is brought to the committee.

4.12   Proposed Domain Validation Annex (98-235r0) [Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer presented a proposal that an informative annex be added to SPI-3
describing domain validation.  He described a concern that omission of any
discussion of domain validation in SPI-3 will cause many questions to the
chair.  Several improvements to the proposed annex were suggested and John
collected the ideas.

George Penokie objected to the inclusion of a definition of `domain
validation' in SPI-3 based on concerns that the definition is not complete as
proposed and cannot be complete long-term, because technological changes will
obsolete a given definition on a regular basis.  The group compared `domain
validation' to `SMART'.  But, Bill Galloway noted that `domain validation' is
different because entities developed by different companies will need to act
cooperatively, whereas the `SMART' capability can be fully implemented inside
the bounds of a single device developed by one manufacturer.

John agreed to bring a revised proposal to the next meeting.

4.13   Cable Testing Requirements (98-219r1) [Daggett]

Zane Daggett reported on the cable testing work preparatory to creating a
revised testing annex for SPI-3.  The group discussed the tests proposed,
suggesting additions and changes.  Skew, cross talk, and connector effects
were among the subjects discussed.

Zane requested authorization of an ad hoc meeting on 2 December to discuss
cable testing to be held in Manchester, NH hosted by Hitachi Cable represented
by Zane Daggett.  Vince Bastiani, Dan Smith, Frank Gasparik and several others
expressed interest in attending.

4.14   QAS and Glitch Filters (98-239r0) [Leshay]

Bruce Leshay presented concerns about how glitch filters might cause failure
to detect critical byte sequences in quick arbitration (98-239r0).  The group
agreed that the problem appeared to be real, but found no immediate solutions.

5.     Meeting Schedule

In view of the late hour, John Lohmeyer noted that allocating only one half
day in March for SPI-3 issues is not enough.

The next meeting of the SPI-3 Working Group with T10 will be Tuesday, March 9,
1999 from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. at a location in Harrisburg, PA to be announced by
the host, AMP.  John reported that the details will be announced as soon as
possible on the T10 reflector and a meeting announcement will be in the next
T10 committee mailing.

John Lohmeyer noted that Larry Lamers had discussed with him the possibility
of a SPI-3 Working Group on Tuesday-Wednesday, January 26-27, 1999 in
Monterey, CA at the Embassy Suites hotel hosted by Adaptec, Inc.   Since Larry
was not present, the meeting proposal could not be confirmed.

Chair's Note:  The above meeting was confirmed at the T10 plenary meeting on
Thursday.  See 98-243r0 for meeting details.

6.     Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 6:30 p.m. on Tuesday November 3, 1998.


--
John Lohmeyer                  Email: lohmeyer at ix.netcom.com
LSI Logic Corp.                Voice: +1-719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: +1-719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907              BBS: +1-719-533-7950

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