Draft Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting 1/7-8/97

Lohmeyer, John JLOHMEYE at cossymwest.co.symbios.com
Tue Jan 14 16:53:00 PST 1997


* From the SCSI Reflector (scsi at symbios.com), posted by:
* "Lohmeyer, John" <JLOHMEYE at COSSYMWEST.CO.SYMBIOS.COM>
*

Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting in Palm Springs, CA X3T10/96-258r0
                                   7
Accredited Standards Committee*
X3, Information Technology
                                             Doc. No.: X3T10/97-111r0
                                                 Date: January 14, 1997
                                              Project:
                                            Ref. Doc.:
                                             Reply to: John Lohmeyer

To:         Membership of X3T10

From:       Ralph Weber, Secretary X3T10
            Larry Lamers, Vice-chair X3T10
            John Lohmeyer, Chair X3T10

Subject:    Minutes of SCSI Working Group Meeting
            Dallas, TX -- January 7-8, 1997


                                  Agenda

1. Opening Remarks

2. Approval of Agenda

3. Attendance and Membership

4. EPI Topics

5. Physical Topics
   5.1 SPI Amendment (Project 0855-D A1) [Lamers/Lohmeyer]

6. Protocol Topics
   6.1 Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195) [Houlder]
   6.2 Command Exception Conditions (95-352r3) [Monia]

7. Command Set Topics
   7.1 SES Review and Recommendation re LB comments [Snively]
   7.2 SPC-2
      7.2.1 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-240r1) [Stephens]
      7.2.2 REPORT LUNs Command Issue (reflector messages) [Weber]
      7.2.3 World Wide Names (97-101r1 and X3T11/96-467r1) [Snively]
      7.2.4 Proposed change in Qerr=1 Behavior in SPC-2 (96-274) [Weber]
      7.2.5 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]
   7.3 Resolution of SBC letter ballot comments [Milligan]
   7.4 SAM-2 [Monia]
   7.5 Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)   
[Frazier]
   7.6 Proposal to add a new modifier to SCSI Write commands (97-127)
      [Coughlan]

8. Other Topics
   8.1 High-Availability Profile [Hagerman]
   8.2 Reconsideration of SCSI-2 based on the ISO corrigendum [Milligan]

9. Meeting Schedule

10. Adjournment



                              Results of Meeting

1.    Opening Remarks

John Lohmeyer, the X3T10 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m.,
Tuesday January 7, 1997.  He thanked Jim McGrath and Mary Turco of   
Quantum for
hosting and arranging the meeting.

As is customary, the people attending introduced themselves and a copy of   
the
attendance list was circulated.  Copies of the draft agenda and general
information on X3T10 were made available to those attending.

2.    Approval of Agenda

The draft agenda was approved with the following additions:

      7.2.5 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]

3.    Attendance and Membership

Attendance at working group meetings does not count toward minimum   
attendance
requirements for X3T10 membership.  Working group meetings are open to   
any
person or organization directly and materially affected by X3T10's scope   
of
work.

The following people attended the meeting:

         Name          S        Organization         Electronic Mail   
Address
 ---------------------- -- -------------------------   
 -------------------------
Mr. Norm Harris        P  Adaptec, Inc.   
            nharris at eng.adaptec.com
Mr. Lawrence J. Lamers A  Adaptec, Inc.             ljlamers at aol.com
Ms. Lisa Huff          V  AMP, Inc.                 lisa.huff at amp.com
Mr. Edward Haske       P  CMD Technology            haske at cmd.com
Mr. Charles Monia      P  Digital Equipment Corp.   monia at shr.dec.com
Mr. Douglas Hagerman   A# Digital Equipment Corp.   
  hagerman at starch.enet.dec.
                                                    com
Dr. William Ham        A# Digital Equipment Corp.   
  ham at subsys.enet.dec.com
Mr. Tom Coughlan       V  Digital Equipment Corp.   
  tom.coughlan at zko.mts.dec.
                                                    com
Mr. Roger Cummings     P  Distributed Processing   
   cummings_roger at dpt.com
                          Tech.
Mr. Edward Lappin      P  Exabyte Corp.             tedl at exabyte.com
Mr. Anthony Yang       O  Hitachi America Ltd.   
     yang_a at halsp.hitachi.com
Mr. George Penokie     P  IBM Corp.   
                gop at rchvmp3.vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dan Colegrove      A# IBM Corp.   
                colegrove at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Robert Basham      O  IBM Corp.                 robbyb at vnet.ibm.com
Mr. Dennis Moore       P  KnowledgeTek, Inc.        dmoore at netcom.com
Mr. Dean Wallace       P  Linfinity Micro   
          75671.3443 at compuserve.com
Mr. Pete McLean        P  Maxtor Corp.   
             pete_mclean at maxtor.com
Mr. Jay Neer           A  Molex Inc.                jneer at molex.com
Mr. E. Jake Berzon     P  NEC Electronics, Inc.   
    jberzon at asic.mtv.nec.com
Mr. Edward A. Gardner  P  Ophidian Designs          gardner at acm.org
Mr. Skip Jones         P  QLogic Corp.              sk_jones at qlc.com
Mr. James McGrath      P  Quantum Corp.             JMCGRATH at QNTM.COM
Mr. Gene Milligan      P  Seagate Technology        Gene_Milligan at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Gerald Houlder     A  Seagate Technology        Gerry_Houlder at notes.
                                                    seagate.com
Mr. Erich Oetting      P  Storage Technology Corp.   
 erich_oetting at stortek.com
Mr. Robert N. Snively  P  Sun Microsystems Computer   
bob.snively at eng.sun.com
                          Co
Mr. John Lohmeyer      P  Symbios Logic Inc.   
       john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Mr. Rod DeKoning       A# Symbios Logic Inc.   
       rod.dekoning at symbios.com
Mr. Ralph O. Weber     A  Symbios Logic Inc.        roweber at acm.org
Mr. Arlan P. Stone     A  UNISYS Corporation   
       arlan.stone at mv.unisys.com
Mr. Paul D. Aloisi     P  Unitrode Corporation      aloisi at unitrode.com
Mr. Gregory Kapraun    V  Western Digital Corp.     kapraun at wdroc.wdc.com
Mr. Jeffrey L.         P  Western Digital   
          jwilliam at wdroc.wdc.com
Williams                  Corporation

33 People Present

Status Key:  P    -  Principal
             A,A# -  Alternate
             O    -  Observer
             L    -  Liaison
             V    -  Visitor
   

4.    EPI Topics

Bill Ham presented a revised table on configurations and length limits.   
 He
noted that there is very little data available on high-voltage   
differential.
The table on LVD is not completed yet.

Bill announced that EPI revision 8 will be in the next committee mailing.

The group discussed several concepts to be included in EPI.  The fifth   
rule of
domains was stated: No loops will be allowed.  If a loop is formed, a   
lockup
may occur.

A simple expander is limited to a maximum of 20 mega-transfers per   
second.
Bill described his ideas for next generation expanders, in particular
expanders that support 40 mega-transfers per second.  He said that he   
will
continue to use "expander" as the term for non-intelligent devices but   
will
use a different term for intelligent devices.

Bill described "SCSI Bridges".  He noted that a SCSI Bridge will occupy a   
SCSI
ID position on all sides.   He stated the belief that SCSI Bridge should   
be
capable of being implemented in a single chip.  A SCSI Bridge handles   
speed
negotiation on all sides, and takes the initiator role on only one side.
Several other aspects of SCSI Bridges were discussed by the group,   
including
comparisons to storage arrays, devices that implement SCSI Controller   
Commands
(SCC).

Bill noted that he wishes to discuss dynamically adding and removing   
segments
at the next meeting.

5.    Physical Topics

5.1   SPI Amendment (Project 0855-D A1) [Lamers/Lohmeyer]

John Lohmeyer and Larry Lamers reported that revision 2 of the SPI   
Amendment
was in the last committee mailing.  Everybody was admonished to review
revision 2.  John stated that a forwarding motion will be taken at the   
plenary
meeting this week.

The group digressed into a discussion of SCAM.  The matter of changing   
device
IDs resulting from SCAM produced an mini-debate between Roger Cummings,   
Larry
Lamers, and John Lohmeyer.  John suggested that a mechanism might be   
devised
where the host adapter would provide the operating system with `fixed
identifiers' for SCAM devices; such identifiers would be invariant for   
that
host adapter regardless of the changes in SCAM-generated bus ID values.   
These
identifiers probably would need to be rather large as compared to today's   
3-
or 4-bit device identifiers.

George Penokie pointed out that there is one missing additional reference   
in
clause 7.  Larry noted that the change will result in the creation of   
revision
3 of the SPI Amendment.

6.    Protocol Topics

6.1   Add Mode Page for Fibre Channel features (96-195) [Houlder]

Gerry Houlder presented 96-195r1, a proposal defining six bits in the
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page to control functions related to the SCSI-3
Fibre Channel Protocol (FCP) and other Fibre Channel standards.  The   
group
rejected addition of bit definitions in SPC-2 that would force SPC-2 to   
add
normative references to several additional Fibre Channel standards   
documents.

The group considered and rejected the definition of several bits in the
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page as protocol-specific.  The problem with   
the
Disconnect-Reconnect mode page was that defining sufficient numbers of
protocol-specific bits would require adding to the defined length of the   
mode
page.

As a result, the group strongly recommended defining one mode page code   
for
protocol-specific use.  Gerry and George Penokie agreed that a   
protocol-type
byte should be defined in a location common to all uses of the newly   
defined
mode page, with the description of the protocol-type byte appearing in   
SPC-2.

George Penokie and Roger Cummings discussed details of the bit   
definitions in
Gerry's proposal.  Gerry agreed to work with George, Roger, and Ralph   
Weber to
create revised draft of his proposal for the next working group meeting.

6.2   Command Exception Conditions (95-352r3) [Monia]

Charles Monia reported that no new presentation was available for this
meeting.

7.    Command Set Topics

7.1   SES Review and Recommendation re LB comments [Snively]

Bob Snively and Ralph Weber reported that an editorial meeting had   
generated a
detailed list of work items to finalize addressing the letter ballot   
comments
to produce SES revision 8a.  They reported their mutual agreement that 8a
addresses the letter ballot comments and is the document that should be   
sent
forward for first public review.  In the absence of any objections, the
working group recommended accepting SES revision 8a as addressing the   
letter
ballot commands and recommended forwarding revision 8a for further   
processing
toward first public review.

7.2   SPC-2

7.2.1 SPC Link Event Timeout (96-240r1) [Stephens]

Gary Stephens was not present.  Gerry Houlder noted that this proposal
concerns issues similar to those raised by his proposal, 96-195.  He   
agreed to
keep the relationship in mind while working of future revisions of his
proposal.

7.2.2 REPORT LUNs Command Issue (reflector messages) [Weber]

George Penokie described his concern that different protocols format LUN
values differently, e.g., one byte for SIP and two bytes for FCP.  George
proposed that the SCC LUN format be adopted for the REPORT LUNS command,   
and
by implication for SPC-2 and all of SCSI.  The group discussed the issue.   
 One
conclusion agreed to by all was that the issue concerns SAM-2, not SPC-2.
George said that he may write a proposal for changing SAM-2 to describe   
the
LUN format as being the format described in SCC.

The other generally agreed conclusion was that a real problem exists for
application clients.  Unless something is done, an application client may   
not
be able to translate the 8 bytes of a full-width LUN to whatever number   
of LUN
value bits are used by the applicable protocol.  For example, how should   
an
application client translate an 8-byte LUN to the 6-bit LUN required by
parallel SCSI?

7.2.3 World Wide Names (97-101r1 and X3T11/96-467r1) [Snively]

Bob Snively asked if the group wished to see a second presentation of the
proposal for new FC-PH identifiers based on IEEE company_ids   
(X3T11/96-467).
The group, having seen the presentation previously, decided to skip a   
repeat
of the presentation.

Bob then presented a tutorial for SCSI use of IEEE registered company_id   
(97-
101).  Bob noted that the tutorial becomes an IEEE document.  X3T10
participation is limited to developing the tutorial, IEEE holds approval
authority for the tutorial.

Gene Milligan asked about how the tutorial will be used by IEEE and how   
that
use will appear to people who request new IEEE company_id values.   
 Several
other questions caused the group to digress to unrelated topics such as   
how
IEEE 1394 and SBP use the IEEE unique ID values that Peter Johansson   
received
|from IEEE last year.

In the absence of any objections, the working group recommended that   
X3T10
offer 97-101r1 to IEEE as the recommended tutorial for SCSI usage of IEEE
company_id values.

7.2.4 Proposed change in Qerr=1 Behavior in SPC-2 (96-274) [Weber]

The group discussed Ralph Weber's proposal.  The notion of redefining the
behavior of a long-time defined bit was abhorrent to the working group   
and
Ralph accepted the group's reasoning.  George Penokie, Jeff Williams, Tom
Coughlan, and Rod DeKoning provided several valuable suggestions.  Ralph
agreed to revise the proposal based on the best ideas discussed during   
the
meeting.  Ralph will bring a revised proposal to the next working group
meeting.

7.2.5 Prevent Allow Medium Removal Issue (96-266) [Basham]

Robert Basham described a problem where, after some types of failures,   
the
PREVENT ALLOW MEDIUM REMOVAL command leaves the operator permanently   
unable to
remove the medium.  He sketched out a revision of his proposal that adds   
new
function modifier bits to the command.  The group provided Robert with
important feedback regarding the proposal.  Robert agreed to provide a   
revised
proposal on the SCSI Reflector for further consideration at the May   
meeting
(he will be unavailable in March).

7.3   Resolution of SBC letter ballot comments [Milligan]

Gene Milligan reported that one negative vote (and several comments) were
received in the letter ballot voting to forward SBC to first public   
review.
Gene then reviewed the comments resolution for the SBC forwarding letter
ballot.

As part of the discussion of the Flexible Disk Geometry mode page, it was
suggested that the page be made obsolete.  However, the group ultimately
agreed to give Digital time to consider how best to handle the page, in   
light
of claims of extensive use in Digital software products.

In response to a letter ballot comment from Western Digital, the group   
agreed
to add the READ DEFECT DATA(12) command, described in the optical   
section, to
the direct access block command set as an optional command.

In the absence of any objections, the working group agreed to accept the
comment resolutions discussed by the working group (96-123) as resolving   
the
letter ballot comments on SBC and agreed with Gene's plan for resolving   
the
Flexible Disk Geometry mode page, provided Gene would produce the wording   
of
the plenary motion.

7.4   SAM-2 [Monia]

Charles Monia stated that no noteworthy information could be reported for   
SAM-
2.

7.5   Commands required by SCSI-2 and optional in SCSI-3 (96-230r0)   
[Frazier]

Giles Frazier presented his concerns with detecting support for commands   
that
were mandatory in SCSI-2 and have been made optional in SCSI-3.  His
particular concern revolved around testing for support for the   
RESERVE(10)
command.  He noted that issuing a RESERVE(10) to test for support for
RESERVE(10) has the undesirable effect of rendering the logical unit
dysfunctional for other initiators.  Jeff Williams pointed out that one   
could
use the RELEASE(10) command as a test for support for the RESERVE(10).   
 Giles
questioned the certainty of such a test.  The group assured him that,   
although
the standards do not contain requirements making the relationship   
certain, the
practical circumstances assure that his needs will be met.

7.6   Proposal to add a new modifier to SCSI Write commands (97-127)
[Coughlan]

Tom Coughlan presented a review of his proposal to add a function   
modifying
bit to the WRITE command and its reception to date.  George Penokie   
described
a very strong IBM objection to adding an bits that modify the operation   
of the
WRITE command.  Since Tom prefaced his remaining remarks with a statement   
that
the proposal will be withdrawn based on the continued support for the   
READ
LONG and WRITE LONG commands, the discussion was brief and cordial.

8.    Other Topics

8.1   High-Availability Profile [Hagerman]

Doug Hagerman distributed revision 3 of X3T10/1224-DT.  At the request of   
Gene
Milligan, the group discussed the goals of the project: what are the   
goals?;
are the goals addressed by the document as written?; should goals be   
added
or removed from the project?  Bob Snively questioned why he should   
contribute
the information that his company considers to be a key value-added   
element of
its product toward the task of writing the high-availability profile.   
 After a
lengthy discussion, the group turned to John Lohmeyer for advice.  John   
stated
a belief that a Technical Report need not describe all possible ways of
achieving an end; it is not a standard.  He based his statement on the   
two
facts: 1) approval of a Technical Report does not require a consensus of   
all
committee members; and 2) voting for approval of a Technical Report does   
not
commit organizations to implementing its contents.  Other   
high-availability
solutions are allowed.  After listening to John's analysis, the group   
agreed
to continue working on the HAP document.

The group discussed many technical concerns with the draft Technical   
Report.
Terms needing definition and their relationship to existing SCSI terms   
were
discussed.  The group suggested that the Technical Report use   
specifically
worded definitions whenever a need is identified, as opposed to relying   
on
supposedly well known existing definitions.  Specific requirements   
included in
the technical description (such as use of the SCA-2 connector, or lack   
there
of, and how mode page data is managed by a target) were discussed.

8.2   Reconsideration of SCSI-2 based on the ISO corrigendum [Milligan]

Larry Lamers and Gene Milligan reviewed progress on developing a   
corrected
version of SCSI-2 based on the errors reported via ISO.  Larry stated a   
belief
that the Japanese were to be asked if they want a corrigendum.  Gene   
expressed
the opinion that, if X3T10 wants to make changes based on the ISO   
comments,
then we should act without requesting input from the authors of the ISO
comments.

There was general agreement with Larry's proposal that the ISO version of   
SCSI-
2 be amended and that we pursue having the amended ISO SCSI-2 be adopted   
as
the American version of SCSI-2.  Larry accepted Gene's reasoning with   
respect
to the question of whether the Japanese need to be consulted before X3T10
proceeds.

9.    Meeting Schedule

The next meeting of SCSI Working Group will be March 11-12, 1997, in San
Diego, CA at the Hyatt Islandia Hotel (619-224-1234), hosted by QLogic.

10.   Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned at 5:03 p.m. on Wednesday January 8, 1996.

 --
John Lohmeyer                 E-Mail: john.lohmeyer at symbios.com
Symbios Logic Inc.             Voice: 719-533-7560
4420 ArrowsWest Dr.              Fax: 719-533-7036
Colo Spgs, CO 80907-3444    SCSI BBS: 719-533-7950 300--14400 baud



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